Please be honest about seminary.

amother

Smokey

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 2:11 pm

I have a dd in Seminary now. There are many reasons why we sent her, I believe everything you listed in your initial post applies. The biggest reason though is that she really wanted to go and I thought she would benefit very much from the experience - spiritual growth, love of EY", independence, chance for a unique experience that she won't have later. I would not say that peer pressure had anything to do with her going, she has several very close friends that did not go to Israel for Seminary and would have had a group of girls with which to attend Local Seminary and college with. I think it depends on the High School and how many girls go, in my dd's school then there were a lot of girls that went and also a lot of girls that stayed here. BH" my dd is happy there and I am happy that she went. It is not a necessity at all though, and don't let anyone convince you of that.

little neshamala

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 2:16 pm

Fox wrote:

Oh, dear! I really need to sort myself out, as they say. At 120, I"YH, the hespedim are going to be all about politics, seminary and handbags. One of my sons-in-law will be sniveling as he speaks, saying, "Ma's kitchen was falling apart and the sukkah was sometimes up in December, but no one in our family ever carried a fake Louis Vuitton bag."

___________________________

Well, here goes:
DH and I accidentally became a shtikl famous in what I'll call the "pro-choice seminary movement" about 5 or 6 years ago. I wrote a lot about it on Imamother and as a result was contacted by a writer for a feature in Mishpacha.

My DH continues to be very active, and we typically start getting 20-30 calls a month during the period of seminary applications and acceptances. Almost all are from men, and a majority of the men are in tears at some point. My DH typically spends an hour or so on each call, and at times he has had to contact Hatzolah or other resources because he felt there was a possibility that the father might be a danger to himself as a result of the pressure to pay for seminary.

How did we stumble into this problem?
For those of you who know me from Imamother or IRL, you know I have 3 DDs: Clementine, Druscilla, and Prunella. Clementine was homeschooled for high school and had no interest in seminary. She's now working as a BCBA in Brooklyn, btw; just turned 24; and is single. All inquiries welcome!

Druscilla and Prunelle, identical twins, went to the local BY high school. When the first "seminary meeting" for parents was called for the beginning of their 12th grade year, DH went. We assumed it would be an "is seminary right for your DD"-type thing.

Um, no. Other posters have described the atmosphere. It wasn't that the principals urged everyone to go -- they didn't conceive that there was even a question! And then proceeded to give advice on how to fill out financial aid forms to essentially mislead the government (it was still possible to get federal and state financial aid easily at that time).

What we discovered . . .
With twin daughters, we were looking at $40,000 just for tuition (2013). Add in plane tickets, spending money, clothes, gifts for hosts . . . Even if the girls contributed their savings, it was a huge amount of money. Our finances were tight at the time, and it would have meant going into significant debt with no clear way to pay it back.

As we researched all the alternatives, we got more and more jaded.

Based on our non-scientific survey, it appeared that approximately 50 percent of women felt they'd had a good experience, and 50 percent felt it had been relatively useless or even negative. That didn't seem like good odds for such a big investment.

We also found seminaries are huge profit-makers for their "owners." Unlike yeshivas, which do fundraising and will take boys who cannot pay the full amount, seminaries offer far less in the way of need-based assistance. Their non-profit status is often maintained by paying the owner and his family members exorbitant salaries in US dollars while paying non-related teachers relatively little.

In the Mishpacha article, an anonymous owner complained that, in addition to the salaries he and his family members received, his "profit" was only $90,000 a year -- after having explained that his seminary was strictly non-profit.

And, of course, we discovered that the debt was killing people. Rabbi Shlomo Simon, a financial counselor for Chicago's Chesed Fund, told us that after wedding expenses, seminary was the top reason families found themselves in unsustainable credit card debt. Wedding expenses, he also told us, were often a problem not because of lavish weddings but because the cost was piggybacking on debt acquired in seminary.

The Posek Rules
The rav whom we consult with our shailos, Rabbi Shmuel Fuerst, sh"lita, the Agudah Dayan of the Midwest, has poskined on seminar attendance:

He has stated that if one is receiving scholarship assistance for younger children in day schools, one may not use one's income to send a daughter to seminary in Israel. In situations where a girl's individual situation suggests that attending seminary is needed for her spiritual development, he will assist in raising whatever money is necessary beyond the parents' resources.

While Rabbi Fuerst had made this statement from the podium at an Agudath Israel convention, it was not widely publicized. Surprise, surprise! When my DH began publicizing it and even circulating the tape of Rabbi Fuerst's speech, you can imagine how popular we were in certain circles. Rolling Eyes

The Outcome
Druscilla and Prunella did not go to seminary. Druscilla was resentful because her friends were going, but Prunella didn't mind as much. Both spent the year working in child care-type jobs, and Prunella took an online graphic arts course.

After a year, each got slightly better jobs, and by the following year, Druscilla had decided to go to nursing school (she'll finish this coming May) and Prunella had a full-time job with benefits in the graphic arts field and had developed a part-time photography business.

Both are married, and to my knowledge, the question of seminary never came up. Of course, you never know who rejected you, but we were literally never even asked why they didn't go or questioned about it. It's possible our reputation proceeded us, but if so, that's fine. If someone is so conformist that they'll go into serious debt just because everyone else is doing something, it would not have been the kind of match we wanted. Druscilla's husband works, and Prunella's husband learns full-time.

What about their friends who attended seminary? A couple enjoyed it, and one -- a very academically-oriented girl -- really loved it. At least two hated it, and one came home early. While you never know what's inside someone's heart, I haven't seen any lasting changes in hashkafa from any of these girls.

Should anyone go to seminary?
Sure. If you're paying full tuition for your other kids, can afford it, and have family or friends in EY who can add a layer of supervision, then go for it. If your daughter is struggling hashkafically and a particular seminary has been recommended that might help her, then absolutely! I'll even make a donation to help.

But if you're being pressured by principals and teachers or by the "everybody" lobby, then let me give you some advice:

I am tired of seeing my DH emerge from his office on winter evenings, shaken up by an emotional call from another Jewish father and husband who is being pressured to come up with $20,000-$30,000 he doesn't have and can't figure out how to get -- all for what amounts to a 10-month grand tour.

I am tired of late night calls from rabbonim, asking my DH to talk to congregants who have confided in them that the financial pressure of seminary is wrecking their shalom bayis because their wives and daughters claim their chances for shidduchim will be ruined if they don't go to seminary.

And after a couple of months of that each winter, I am tired of coming on Imamother or reading in Jewish papers everyone's shock and disgust that Jews commit financial crimes. Really? Seminary costs aren't the only reason people commit financial crimes, of course. But what do you think happens when a man hears, even implicitly, that he's a lousy father if he can't come up with $30,000 to ensure his beloved baby girl's future?

If you can afford it or your daughter has saved money for it, sure. If your daughter needs it, sure. But if not, teach your daughter the one lesson she won't get from seminary: you don't sacrifice your family's financial and mental health on the altar of "but everybody does it."

I cant clap loud enough. Beautifully put.

Someone needs to publish THIS.

SacN

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 2:17 pm

Posting as a seminary graduate myself.

I'm a baal teshuva. I was shomer shabbos since 15 and went to public school.

I was looking for the "in" that would give me the lingo, the network, and the background in yiddishkeit that I needed. I spent my own money from working/my college fund and got credits for the year. I did not to go a textual school, and there are no sems for BT 18 year olds who are already frum.

I was terribly disappointed. The teachers were barely out of college (or had never been), the rebeiim ran a business (my money) and I ended up with girls who didn't like their Bais Yaakov upbringing or didn't care much about school. I was looking to grow, and while it seemed that we talked a lot about growth, the girls were just there to stay up until midnight (or later) goofing off. I know some of my classmates felt very differently and loved it.

I'm a while out of seminary, and now years later, I see that it DID give me a better understanding of frum culture that I needed. I'm also very friendly now with a couple of my former teachers.

I live in Israel (nothing to do with seminary, my husband dragged me, he's Israeli), and I knew exactly what it was like here before I came. That was utterly the best thing about my year. It prepared me for Aliya.

If I lived in the states, I'd probably discourage my daughter from wasting her time. But I'd also take into account the things I did gain, and my daughter herself. Being in EY was great. Being away from home in seminary was eh.

After seminary I went to Touro Manhattan and lived in the dorm and I loved every second. I grew so much there, no Kool-aid involved. The freedom and the friendships and the academics and the chance to explore yiddishkeit my own way really helped me.

Every person is different.

amother

Babyblue

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 2:19 pm

I never went to sem.my parents could afford it I wasnt interested . I went straight to college. Was married before I finished via a shidduch.
My dd never planned to go to sem. She had a great education and has learnt a ton (Judaic). However as the time approached for her to apply for jobs or college she realised she was afraid and wasnt ready. As her kodesh lessons in high school wound down she realised she missed them terribly and started going to shiurim in the eve.
The combo of the 2 made her look at sem as an option. People recommended all sorts of semd but the best thing we did was go see the sems. Nothinf was as described. We sat in on multiple classes....talked to lots of girls, teachers and machaneches. The one I listened to the least was the sem rabbi. His job after all is to sell me the sem. (Esp as my dd bh has a fine name etc)
She applied to 2 and got a place in both. We chose one and asked for a discount. We got a significant discount. Bh. We told our dd iver and over if she just wants a yr out or a yr in ey we can rent her a room for a few mths there for much less money. But she was sure she wanted to learn and grow too.
bh shes been there 3 mths and is so happy. And it's not a tour trip. The trips are not often. The learning is great. She loves it. Shes become.more confident and independent and bh more learned. Shes smart enough not to drink too much kool aid and we've warned her she can't make any major decisions toll shes been back a bit and defragged. (Just incase!!!!)
Ps she is no in a typical by sem although there r many "out of town" by girls there)

amother

Babyblue

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 2:19 pm

amother

Linen

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 2:45 pm

My oldest just went to seminary. We are chabad so the situation is slightly different. But seminary is definitely a factor with shidduchim, although I would hope and think thoughtful families will look at the girl and if there is a good reason she didn't go to seminary.

There are a small handful of seminaries which are supposed to be "top" seminaries. DD1 wanted to go to one of these. The cost in chabad seminaries is much lower btw. My dd's cost $17000 for the year, and we got masa grants for about $6000 of that. So actual cost is $10000. Plus air tickets and spending money. American seminaries (we don't live in a place with a seminary so she would need rent money as well) are similar sums and no masa grants.

I don't know if dd 1 "needs" to go to seminary. She is having an amazing experience and loves the learning. Since her seminary is extremely popular and extremely selective I am hoping she is also making some very good friends who are hopefully strong, stable, frum girls. And yes, I am hoping that it will help with shidduchim which I am dreading. We don't have money or lots of yichus so hopefully this will give a step up.

I am in complete agreement about seminaries being a money making business. My daughters seminary has a shana beis option which is much cheaper. Possibly because its less popular or the girls can't get masa. And of course no shadchan asks if someone went to shana beis.

Chayalle

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 2:52 pm

amother wrote:

If only the concept of allowing for individual choices would exist in our worlds. Just look at some posts in this thread. Posters are actually stating that not going to sem affects your shidduchim. This type of uniformity doesn't allow people to be who they are, and forces people into decisions they would never otherwise make.

If only girls would be able to decide upon seminary based on their own needs.

If only yeshiva boys would be able to decide the path of their lives based on their skills and characters.

If only girls were taught the multiple paths of Torah and allowed to choose what spiritually works best for them.

If only .................

Imo, this push to conformity and uniformity is a core issue of so many unnecessary troubles in our society.

All of this exists, if you are confident enough to be yourself and tap into your individuality, and if you raise your kids to do so.

I for one have raised my kids to know that as long as they choose a life of Torah U'mitzvos, I'm proud of them. They don't have to choose a life of (fill in the blank) if it doesn't suit them.

amother

Purple

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 3:03 pm

amother wrote:

let me guess. There's probably a whole list of additional things that he "needs", on top of a girl who went to seminary in E"Y. It probably has alot to do with her father's bank account.....

Nope! Guess again!
And try to be nice!

naturalmom5

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 3:52 pm

amother wrote:

I'm gonna be very, very honest here.
My oldest DD went to seminary mainly because a.she wanted to b.the school put a lot of pressure on the girls and parents c.we were told she would have a lot of difficulty getting a shidduch without going. And there are already some strikes against us shidduchim wise, so we didn't stand a chance. With those three things, we caved. No, we can't afford it, but she spent her own money while there, we borrowed from family, and we went without some things the year she went.
Ok, she's been back a year. She came back frummer than frum. Had to buy her all new clothes because all of hers "weren't tznius enough." (Don't worry, I had her buy a lot of them). Not tznius enough meant that they weren't 4 inches below the knee. She wears shells under EVERYTHING because no neckline is high enough for her. Davens three times a day, even now, two years later. Reads no secular literature at all, and she used to be a huge reader. And the clincher -- looks down at us, a perfectly nice frum family, as less frum than she is. Looks down on her father for not learning enough. Though he works like a dog. Looks down on her brother for wanting Adidas pants. Looks down on her sister for not davening long enough. Looks down on me for watching YouTube. Has turned down shidduchim because the guy has been known to wear a blue shirt, or if he is taking some college courses while in Yeshiva.
Barf.
My next DD is there now. Again, lots of pressure, Again, borrowed money. She is very different from DD1. She is in a very good seminary but is turned off by the classes. She feels like their trying to convince her that there's only one way to be -- learn forever, live in EY, blah blah blah. She's sent to do chesed at some kollel couple who live very nicely thanks very much because mommy and daddy are supporting them, but she has to fold their laundry because that's a chessed. She asked to be placed at a family she knows whose husband is in a very intense college program and wife works three jobs (lovely frum people), but no, their not worthy of her chessed according to the seminary. She's loving EY but really not into seminary at all. For this I've sacrificed and spent money?
Seminary is a big fat crock, and the reason why it's perpetuated is so we stupid Americans can support Americans in EY who work for the seminaries. G-d knows how many people would be without a living if seminary in EY suddenly was no longer in vogue.
Honest enough for you?

Next time tell us what you are really thinking.... Smile

Emotional

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 3:56 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

Next time tell us what you are really thinking.... Smile

amother

Pewter

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 4:02 pm

amother wrote:

Nope! Guess again!
And try to be nice!

I will try.

You said this:

Quote:

they feel if not she missed out on something...he needs more than a high school girl and more than an american sem girl, needs someone who left her surrondings for a year to learn and grow...

Please explain how a girl who went to seminary in E"Y is more than a high school girl, while a girl who went to an American sem is not. Why don't you think it's possible for a girl who did not go to E"Y to have learned and grown sufficiently, that a boy "needs" more than she is in a wife.

I will say - my own experience and observation (said as someone who did go to Israel for seminary, but has many friends who did not) is that what you said is pretty general and not based on substance. But I'd love to hear an explanation. I could be wrong.

ectomorph

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 4:06 pm

All things being equal I would pick a girl who went to Seminary over a girl who didn't because it's just more normal.

but if she had work experience I might think about it.

Really depends on guy and gal.

amother

Cerise

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 4:20 pm

amother wrote:

OMG I feel for you!!!! Maybe you should tell your oldest daughter how much you've sacrificed and that the father she doesn't respect paid for her education. Which he couldn't have if he learned. Ugh that makes me so angry. My best friend once came home crying because some girls had made fun of her father for working instead of learning. Well who was paying for their tuition??? HER father! I hate that attitude. I can't tell yet because my kids are so young but if one of my kids behaved like this I'd probably ask them to move out. If you think you're all that .. you might aswell take care of yourself..?

amother

Purple

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 4:43 pm

amother wrote:

Hes been around and he feels the girls who go are sometimes more independent experienced being and living in EY and those things are important to him! Hes discussed it with his rabbeim and im sure theres more u can take it up woth him!!

amother

Wheat

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 4:54 pm

I sent my daughter to seminary because I wanted her to spend a year in Israel. If she had been living in a different time and had gone to a different school, she might’ve gone for a year program on kibbutz, and that would have been fine. I really wanted her to do a year of national service, but that’s designed for girls who live in Israel and doesn’t lend itself well to girls who don’t have their family in the country.

In any case, neither national service nor kibbutz was what girls in her crowd were doing. Seminary was. I’m happy to say that her seminary provided many guided tours and tiyulim so she really got to see quite a lot of the country and learn a lot of its history.

I had zero interest in sending her to seminary anywhere outside of Israel. Seminary itself is an unnecessary luxury IMO for a girl who’s been going to frum schools since the age of three, except maybe if she intends to become a limudei kodesh teacher and enrolls in a teacher certification track. Seminary was just the only practical way I could send dd to Israel for a year.

little neshamala

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 4:58 pm

I didnt go to seminary at all, and at the risk of sounding like im tooting my own horn, I will say that I was a LOT more "grown up" than many of my post sem friends. I really was quite mature, fiscally responsible, responsible in general and ready to deal with real life.

In fact I saw many of my friends absolutely freak out about all of a sudden having to deal with real life when they got back.

amother

Hotpink

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 5:09 pm

little neshamala wrote:

Yes, totally agree with this. There's nothing like real life to encourage someone to grow up. Seminary delays that for a year. I think a lot of people mistaken independence for maturity. Independence can encourage maturity, but in many cases kids abuse it to enjoy a year free of their parents control and free of many life's responsibilities.

amother

Apricot

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 5:35 pm

amother wrote:

In Chabad, seminary is actually barely a factor. I come from a big Chabad family and am married into a big Chabad family. No one cares about seminary.

amother

Periwinkle

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 5:44 pm

I went to seminary because everyone was doing it. I regretted it so much. I am the homesick type, and I missed my parents and siblings so much. I went to a less academic seminary even though I'm very much the academic type because that's the only place I got into (after being "pushed in" and rejected by my other choices), and I learned to slack off.

I had nowhere to go for shabbos and spent a lot of time in the dorms, feeling pathetic. I'm shy and did not make friends easily.

Now, in retropsect with 20/20 hindsight, I wish my parents would have had the foresight to keep me home. Based on my experience, I think Sem is a money-making game for all those involved and people who go should be laughed at for their foolishness.

4pom

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 6:08 pm

ectomorph wrote:

I understand your thoughts all things being equal... and your last 2 sentences too. I totally hear and relate.

I am confused by your use of the term normal?

Last edited by 4pom on Mon, Nov 12 2018, 6:22 pm; edited 1 time in total