Please be honest about seminary.

amother

Beige

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 6:45 pm

saralem wrote:

Figure at least $20000. At least.

Tuition itself is more than that. Then there's the kosher phone fee, the dorm key deposit fee, the rav kav card, the food you really eat in your dorm fee, the email acount and computer usage fee, the right wardrobe or no one will talk to me fee, the need to be home for pesach addtl round trip ticket fee and the mommy visits once chanuka or tu bshvat fee.
Nowadays, there's the 11th grade trip with mommy to check out the seminaries you might apply to pilot-trip, but I'm not sure if that limited to particular zip codes.

ectomorph

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 7:02 pm

4pom wrote:

I understand your thoughts all things being equal... and your last 2 sentences too. I totally hear and relate.

I am confused by your use of the term normal?

in my circles growing up , every normal girl was accepted to Seminary and there was usually a story if she didn't go.

things might have changed by the time my kids are older. but if I was looking now I would have to ask questions if a girl didn't go to Seminary. and if I had a million choices I would probably go with one who did go to Seminary because it's just less question that needs to be asked.

PinkFridge

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 7:25 pm

amother wrote:

Pilot trip????
And I had more than one daughter in sem in Israel. We never went in to visit, and did not bring them home for Pesach.

amother

Pewter

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 7:35 pm

amother wrote:

Hes been around and he feels the girls who go are sometimes more independent experienced being and living in EY and those things are important to him! Hes discussed it with his rabbeim and im sure theres more u can take it up woth him!!

Funny but I sometimes see the opposite.

I do see some girls who are more independent - and often those are the ones who worked to help pay for their own seminary. But alot of the girls who went, go on their parent's dime, and are hardly more independent just because they went to E"Y. Many of them have their mammas taking care of them from all the way here (I know someone whose mother made her Shabbos arrangements for her, long distance!) and are basically spending loads of money, not much independence or growth there.

I'm just saying, this is a big generalization!

He should find the right girl. But keep in mind, seminary in E"Y is not in and of itself what builds a girl. There are many quality girls who stay here for seminary.

Chayalle

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 7:38 pm

ectomorph wrote:

When I went to seminary over 20 years ago, the price was so much cheaper (even taking into account inflation.) Even then, girls who lived in town could go to a local seminary that was way more affordable. For myself, there was no local seminary option then, and it would've cost just as much, if not more, to go to one with a dorm option in the US.

Nowadays, a girl not going to seminary could be for a million reasons....and many times, because she did not care to put her parents into debt (as Fox has posted). The Israeli seminaries have dramatically increased their rates.

Things have definitely changed.

sequoia

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 8:32 pm

amother wrote:

I'm gonna be very, very honest here.
My oldest DD went to seminary mainly because a.she wanted to b.the school put a lot of pressure on the girls and parents c.we were told she would have a lot of difficulty getting a shidduch without going. And there are already some strikes against us shidduchim wise, so we didn't stand a chance. With those three things, we caved. No, we can't afford it, but she spent her own money while there, we borrowed from family, and we went without some things the year she went.
Ok, she's been back a year. She came back frummer than frum. Had to buy her all new clothes because all of hers "weren't tznius enough." (Don't worry, I had her buy a lot of them). Not tznius enough meant that they weren't 4 inches below the knee. She wears shells under EVERYTHING because no neckline is high enough for her. Davens three times a day, even now, two years later. Reads no secular literature at all, and she used to be a huge reader. And the clincher -- looks down at us, a perfectly nice frum family, as less frum than she is. Looks down on her father for not learning enough. Though he works like a dog. Looks down on her brother for wanting Adidas pants. Looks down on her sister for not davening long enough. Looks down on me for watching YouTube. Has turned down shidduchim because the guy has been known to wear a blue shirt, or if he is taking some college courses while in Yeshiva.
Barf.
My next DD is there now. Again, lots of pressure, Again, borrowed money. She is very different from DD1. She is in a very good seminary but is turned off by the classes. She feels like their trying to convince her that there's only one way to be -- learn forever, live in EY, blah blah blah. She's sent to do chesed at some kollel couple who live very nicely thanks very much because mommy and daddy are supporting them, but she has to fold their laundry because that's a chessed. She asked to be placed at a family she knows whose husband is in a very intense college program and wife works three jobs (lovely frum people), but no, their not worthy of her chessed according to the seminary. She's loving EY but really not into seminary at all. For this I've sacrificed and spent money?
Seminary is a big fat crock, and the reason why it's perpetuated is so we stupid Americans can support Americans in EY who work for the seminaries. G-d knows how many people would be without a living if seminary in EY suddenly was no longer in vogue.
Honest enough for you?

This made me cry.

ludicrous

Tue, Nov 13 2018, 3:31 am

I am from LA, went to BYLA, and almost everyone goes to seminary. I didn't get accepted to 2 top seminaries in Eretz Yisrael, but went to somewhere in America, and people thought that was nebby. Most of my friends didn't enjoy the classes, enjoyed the touring and socializing, but didn't have much long term gain after seminary. I think it is a big problem that the "top" seminaries, for the "top" girls, are very academic, and there is a lot of academic pressure, and a lot of girls go there because it is a seminary for good girls, but suffer while sitting through boring classes. Less academic seminaries have a bad name, supposedly.
I also worked in an area where there are a number of seminaries, and I see girls hanging out, talking on their cell phones loudly, and do not seem to be living a real life, and it looks like they are wasting their time.
It makes me sad to see people spending so much money for something that they don't really believe in, but feel like they have to because it is the done thing. People have told me that they do not want to send their daughters to seminary when the time comes, but when their daughters are in 12th grade they end up deciding to send to seminary because they don't have any other options.
I have seen that out of town places push seminary more than the NY, NJ places. Parents want their children to broaden their horizons. I can understand that, but the price tag is high. Someone told me that seminary helped her feel like she had her time to herself before she got busy raising a family and kids, but again, I don't think it justifies going into debt for that.
And for those that say that it ends up being cheaper to send to seminary in Israel, the tuition may be cheaper, but it ends up being more expensive to bring numerous suitcases, buy presents for the shabbos hosts, rav kav, ice cappuccino, pizza, and who knows what else.

chanchy123

Tue, Nov 13 2018, 5:16 am

amother wrote:

I sent my daughter to seminary because I wanted her to spend a year in Israel. If she had been living in a different time and had gone to a different school, she might’ve gone for a year program on kibbutz, and that would have been fine. I really wanted her to do a year of national service, but that’s designed for girls who live in Israel and doesn’t lend itself well to girls who don’t have their family in the country.

In any case, neither national service nor kibbutz was what girls in her crowd were doing. Seminary was. I’m happy to say that her seminary provided many guided tours and tiyulim so she really got to see quite a lot of the country and learn a lot of its history.

I had zero interest in sending her to seminary anywhere outside of Israel. Seminary itself is an unnecessary luxury IMO for a girl who’s been going to frum schools since the age of three, except maybe if she intends to become a limudei kodesh teacher and enrolls in a teacher certification track. Seminary was just the only practical way I could send dd to Israel for a year.

I'm pretty sure you can do sherut leumi/national service as a bodeda like soldiers with a similar support system. I've seen ads for the program.

Commenting here in case anyone else is interested.

Emotional

Tue, Nov 13 2018, 6:57 am

ectomorph wrote:

And this made ME cry.
A girls' normalcy is questioned if her parents can't afford such exorbitance? Or if she just plain doesn't want to go?
I went to Bais Yaakov Half-Day. The amount of girls in the intensive program alone was over 300. I think the half- day was about 100 or so.
So all those 400 girls weren't "normal"?

debsey

Tue, Nov 13 2018, 10:48 am

I'm going to be very honest here.
I went to seminary in EY and I hated it, for lots of reasons. I think my seminary really dropped the ball with my particular cohort of girls, and it really wasn't a great year. I didn't party and I didn't feel like it was summer camp. It felt like pressurizing school. In high school, I went to an amazing BY school where we were expected to create relationships with teachers (and I'm still close to one of my HS teachers, more than 20 years later). Seminary, the teachers were cold and uninterested. I did nothing but study, and didn't feel very inspired or uplifted or personally developed.

Not surprisingly, when it came time for my daughter to talk about after HS plans, I was unenthusiastic to say the least about EY for seminary. It is also not my DH's hashkafa - he would have preferred a US seminary like BY Intensive or maybe Assaf.

My daughter, who is a great student, and very independent, wanted to go badly. She saved up all her summer salaries from 9th grade and on, and also babysat, to earn some of the money (mostly her spending money and some money for application fees)

Her HS principal, who knew her well, convinced me to go to one open house for a particular seminary she thought would be very good for her. I went, and I really liked the principal, who gave me a lot of time, and discussed it in detail. She really liked my daughter, and offered us a very good tuition break as well.

My daughter was accepted to all the seminaries she applied to, and was accepted to a very "top" seminary, but chose the one where I had been impressed by the principal (which saved us a lot of money, and also made me feel comfortable because I really was impressed by this woman.)

She's been back a few years now, and I'm very happy she went. It really was a year of growth for her. If it would have only been about shidduchim, she would have chosen the "top" seminary she was accepted to. For her, it was all about personal development, and it achieved its aim.

Yes, she did come back more "farfrumt" but in a sane and balanced fashion. I sent my second daughter there as well, and she did very well too.

I think these decisions are more complicated than just simple boiling down to "peer pressure" or "shidduchim."

Chayalle

Tue, Nov 13 2018, 12:42 pm

Emotional wrote:

I hope ectomorph includes all seminaries when she said Seminary (that is, including half day and intensive, those are also seminary.)

But I also take issue with questioning a girl's normalcy for not going to seminary at all. I know many fine girls who opted to get a job after high school. For example, DD has a good friend who is a fine, solid frum girl, and definitely very normal, who decided that working made more sense for her than seminary.

amother

Gold

Tue, Nov 13 2018, 12:52 pm

OP again.

Just wanted to thank you all for the thoughtful responses and spinoff. It certainly gave is food for thought.

BTW, Fox mentioned R Feurst and people wanted a recording. Someone pointed me towards a recent Headlines podcast about seminary where he was interviewed. He said something very similar to what was mentioned above.

And I've learned that if we want mainstream shidduch, we better be ready to explain the choice to keep her home if we choose that approach. Rolling Eyes

For now, it seems that judging by the individual child is key. I do maintain that for most kids, it's purely a luxury. Obviously there are exceptions. I hope to stay balanced through the process.

Thank you, ladies.

ectomorph

Tue, Nov 13 2018, 1:07 pm

Emotional wrote:

dont cry.
I wouldn't question a girl who went to half day. . It definitely counts as seminary.

Its a question that can have a good answer. Its still a question.

naturalmom5

Tue, Nov 13 2018, 1:15 pm

Emotional wrote:

Um... Yup...

Normal is relative...

The best bochur in BMG who finished Shas at 19 is not normal in Monroe or New Square

little neshamala

Tue, Nov 13 2018, 1:42 pm

amother wrote:

Eh, I wouldnt worry. According to the poll in the other thread about 90% of ppl are still normal and wouldnt dismiss the shidduch idea. Carry on...