Kids with LD and long division

seeker

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 1:29 am

Time to connect with some smart people out here. I'm working with a child whose class is learning long division. In many cases I'm a stickler for building cognitive skills through all kinds of work, but in this situation, in this day and age with calculators on every phone, I really don't see why we need to be torturing kids with long division. I think it's a good idea to teach, and whoever gets it good for them, and for the rest - why not just give up? But since this is not mainstream view, I don't want the child to think I'm giving up on her personally.

So, first of all, am I wrong? Is there, in fact, a reason to make kids learn how to do long division?

And secondly, if it is worth pursuing, maybe just for the sake of getting along in class for the next couple of years before it becomes irrelevant, what tips do you have for getting LD kids through it? (we have the acronyms down, it's actually doing it...)

I'm happy focusing on estimation, which is a more practical skill. But I'm talking about those many dull examples where you have to calculate how many times 39 goes into 420,862. Shooting Arrow

seeker

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 1:51 am

I think spelling has a lot more value than long division. Ultimately they can use spellcheck but an understanding of spelling develops alongside an understanding of language. Plus, spellcheck needs a decent starting point, and even then it often messes up. Of course there are those with persistent spelling troubles who will do very well with a combination of technology and perhaps even a good secretary, but it needs to be studied in the first place. Long division... eh. Algebra is important, memorizing the 1-12 facts is important (again, if someone persistently doesn't get them down after a few years of reasonable effort, then there's always a calculator. But it should still be a default goal.) I've made sure my kids can do short division, and they know how to round and use the zero "tricks" to estimate. I feel like they passed the chapter. Of course they would fail the test if we stopped with that, except I think I'm about to modify it.

amother

Chocolate

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 2:48 am

I teach English and I still can't spell. It's a real brain block. My parents made sure I know how uneducated you look to the world if you don't spell correctly. I still use spell check even when writing a hand written note to the parents - I just quick check the words on my phone. I know enough to know what word looks wrong, and I get it close enough that spell check will pick it up. My goal with kids who have the same disability is just that it should be close enough for spell check to pick up. Funny, how I can be extra sensitive to students with this issue because I share the same issue. I'm sure if it came easily to me I wouldn't get what the big deal is, and I would think they just weren't trying. It's impossible to be in someone's head and know how hard they are trying. That's why school is so dumb. It's the year 2018 why are we still teaching like we're the 50's? It's time to teach to multiple intelligences and let each kids unique mind shine!

teachkids

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 7:05 am

There are certain types of long division a calculator can't help with. For example, if there's a remainder ( for fractions it's necessary) or polynomial.
That being said, I've taught classes of kids with LDs how to do long division. Tips: 1) write down/have them write down the steps on the side of their paper each time, you can even have them refer back and check off each step as they do it. 2) if they don't have total fact fluency yet, let them use a multiplication chart or list of facts so that they're not trying to do 2 cognitive skills at the same time. 3) leave them tons of space, preferably marked into columns so they don't lose their place if they lose focus. 4) teach them to constantly mark up the problem (arrows for each number they bring down, cross off numbers they're done with) so if they lose focus they don't lose the problem. 5) Lots and lots of practice, patience and encouragement.
Feel free to PM me for more info.

amother

Babyblue

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 9:03 am

You need to learn math including long division to be able to do higher mathematics. You can't do college math without a sense of how many times a certain number will go into another number. You can't do economics, statistics, higher science without a feel for numbers. You will struggle with those subjects even if you are bright. Why limit a child's future by stopping early?

I beg to differ that people don't judge if you use a calculator. In a business meeting, you look like the slow person if you need to take out your calculator while eveyone else intuits the conclusion. Slow people aren't respected in that world.

In life, people's opinion drops of others if they can't figure out 40% off or how much to tip. It shows they have a poor education. And without a sense of numbers, people don't handle money well.

seeker

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 10:58 am

amother wrote:

The "sense" of how many times a number will go into another is called estimation. And 40% off does not require long division, either (that lovely zero! And if it's 45% then it's half of a ten!) This is why I would rather spend instructional time on developing that "feel" than getting through 43 into 56,897 by hand.

And I'm not sure where you do business but I've been in some pretty heavy meetings with accountants and attorneys, respectively, and of course they all had their calculators out the whole time. They mentally estimate and use the calculator for detailed backup. Power performers don't waste valuable meeting time doing calculations that a machine can do in a second, and they also don't take the chance of getting the data wrong if they slip up somewhere.

seeker

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 11:03 am

teachkids wrote:

Hmm. I've never been asked for a fractional remainder on a 5-digit number but I guess you never know? Same for polynomials, not entirely sure of the relevance but maybe I just haven't taken my math education far enough? I think if a kid wants to go that far in a math field then they can catch up in college.

I've been doing just about what you describe but I'm going to tighten up the use of those visual aids. Some kids are doing well with crossing off the numbers they're done with, but for others it's yet another step to remember, and then if they forget to cross one off then they're in trouble.

amother

Ginger

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 11:29 am

teachkids wrote:

I am a teacher, and I'll be introducing long division in about two weeks. I love your idea of crossing out numbers already used!! Columns or graph paper is a great idea too!

My weaker students tend to write DMSBDMSB... on the side of the paper, crossing out each step as they've done it. (That's how I teach out, but obviously the real math brains don't do out that way.)

It's so annoying when kids think they're smarter than arrows...

I love your ideas. Thank you! I will be implementing them bli neder

amother

White

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 1:17 pm

First of all, as one previous poster said, you need to know long division in the Regents Algebra II curriculum, when you're asked to do long division of polynomials. That's obviously for those in NY, but I'm pretty sure it's a universal Algebra or Precalculus topic.

Also, while I don't think it's necessarily critical for students to be able to do long division perfectly, they do need to learn the skills to be able to estimate long division. When you need to figure out "how many times does 24 go into 560" as part of a long division problem, it exercises that kind of thinking. This is necessary later on when learning factoring, LCD, GCF, etc.

Last edited by amother on Fri, Jul 12 2019, 10:12 am; edited 1 time in total

nicole81

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 1:22 pm

seeker wrote:

So I had to google digi blocks, and they look like a lovely tool for building conceptual understanding, but I'm not sure how that helps translate into 42 into 13,296...

Examples like this are completely unnecessary.

Numeracy is important and estimation would be the skill to work on. That and examples with smaller numbers to build his number sense.

Polynomial division is a fractional part of the algebra 2 curriculum, and not relevant unless this child is going to pursue a STEM career.

For frame of reference, I am a public high school principal whose area of instructional expertise is mathematics.

DrMom

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 1:23 pm

I am one of those old-fashioned people who sees value in knowing how to spell (even though we have spell-checkers), how to read (even though we have audiobooks and podcasts and films), and how to do simple arithmetic (even though we have calculators).

Every minimally-educated adult should possess these basic skills.

FranticFrummie

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 2:30 pm

Seeker, I agree with you 100%. I also think that Common Core is pure evil. Twisted Evil

DD can do long division in her head, and I can't tell you how many times she's been penalized for not showing her work, or worse, been accused of cheating.

Math is hard enough for some kids, why are teachers constantly making it harder?