Halachic Obligation to Vaccinate

Amarante

Wed, Nov 14 2018, 10:49 am

southernbubby wrote:

I called the Rockland county health department and they told me that because I was born in 1955, I should not worry about catching the measles.

I don't know where that news report came from but they are not advocate doing anything different.

My health department here in Oakland County does not usually give the shot to people my age.

I think it's because it is almost impossible for someone to have been born prior to effective vaccination and not have gotten the disease in childhood. It would have been as unlikely as someone never getting a cold because the disease was so prevalent that it was considered to be a rite of passage for children.

I wanted to add that with respect to flu vaccinations, it is the opposite as the population most at risk for dying or severe complications from flu each year are the Bubbes and Zeides because the vaccination is less effective as one ages. Perhaps the new "senior vaccination" will help but the Bubbes and Zeides really depend on herd immunity just as the new born and those who are immunocompromised do - but statistically the seniors die in the highest number.

camp123

Wed, Nov 14 2018, 10:49 am

Doing what's normal refers to situations which require you to do hishdadlus to prevent danger.
What are the parameters of doing something dangerous? .We all go in cars which is dangerous but bc is normal to go in cars it's allowed under the halacha of שומר פסילים.
There is an obligation to not put yourself in danger but you can do what is normal I.e. Drive a car. You aren't allowed to smoke bc everyone agrees on the dangers.
Since every country in the world requires vaccinations as a means to prevent danger it becomes a norm that must be followed.

southernbubby

Wed, Nov 14 2018, 10:55 am

Amarante wrote:

I am certain that I never had the measles but my understanding is that people are 'vaccinated' so to speak by being in a society where the disease is present, even if they themselves never experienced it.

I also think that because the MMR is a live virus, it may be more problematic from a side effect standpoint to give it to the elderly due to somewhat compromised immune systems. I am a big believer in flu shots because as viruses go, it is one of the most deadly and easily transmitted. The health department said that during the winter you must open windows and air out your home frequently so that the cold air can kill the germs.

southernbubby

Wed, Nov 14 2018, 10:59 am

camp123 wrote:

Ordinary normal childbirth can also kill women and it used to kill them in large numbers but because our lives would not be very fulfilling and the human race would die out if women avoided childbearing due to the dangers, we take the risk.

The same goes for the risks of vaccines. The pro-vax camp does a big disservice by denying or playing down the risks of vaccines. They would be better off acknowledging them and then saying that the risks from vaccines are statistically less common than the risk of being harmed by the illness itself. Those who deny that people have been injured by vaccines lose the public's trust.

amother

Mint

Wed, Nov 14 2018, 11:02 am

southernbubby wrote:

I'm not a doctor but you don't acquire immunity unless you actually had the disease at some point or received appropriate vaccinations. It's the way the body "remembers" how it created the necessary response so that it triggers it immediately thereafter.

You might have gotten the measles without remembering it as most people don't remember specific diseases they might have gotten - or you might have gotten a relatively mild case. I know I had both the measles and chicken pox as I am more or less your age but I don't have a specific memory of getting the measles because I think I got it when I was less than five and I don't have specific memories of each disease and its diagnosis except I remember sometimes being sick the memories are very blurred.

Ema of 5

Wed, Nov 14 2018, 11:05 am

southernbubby wrote:

Ouch. I’m sure you didn’t mean to hurt anyone with that line, but I’m pretty sure anyone who doesn’t have children will say they can still have very fulfilling lives.

southernbubby

Wed, Nov 14 2018, 11:09 am

amother wrote:

I am quite sure that I didn't have it but now I am reading that they are advising titers to be drawn for people that age and re-vaccination if it is low. Maybe they are considering that people had mild cases since I know that I had rubella and mumps.

nchr

Wed, Nov 14 2018, 11:21 am

southernbubby wrote:

No one denies legitimate vaccine injuries, but Autism has been disproven as dribble and there is no way all of the people who don't vaccinate would have reactions. You realize how rare a legitimate injury is? Most ppl paid in vaccine court did not sustain legit injuries, only a very small minority.

southernbubby

Wed, Nov 14 2018, 11:25 am

nchr wrote:

Using words such as 'disproven' is also problematic because statistically it has been disproven in population studies but it seems that everyone knows someone who exhibited autism after vaccines but had appeared normal before. So even though it is only anecdotal and hard to 'prove' it is still scary to the public when it is simply written off as having no connection to vaccines.

Ravenclaw

Wed, Nov 14 2018, 11:28 am

camp123 wrote:

Of course halacha can be applied to currant situations. We do it all the time.
According to rabbi tatz quoting rav elyashiv. The halacha is to do what is normal. That is to do normal hishdadlus and then rely on Hashem. If you do this even if vaccines are harmful you will not be harmed anymore than if u don't vaccinate. It is a complete lack of bitachon not to vaccinate.
Also there are 613 motzvos, Not halachos.

This is a good point. Think about it like this- when we have to decide if something is pikuach nefesh, you have to listen to a doctor halachically. (Fasting Yom Kippur, performing medical procedures on Shabbos etc) even if the patient insists they feel fine, we pasken according to the doctor.
So let’s assume for argument’s sake that the research on both sides of the vaccination argument are equal. Even so, who should you listen to torahdig? The current majority of good doctors. True, science changes medical opinions throughout history, but the Torah tells us to listen to the current doctors.
Am I making a mistake? Possibly (I doubt it, but there is a chance) but I would rather risk making a mistake by following what science, the medical world and most rabbonim are telling me what to do than to risk making a mistake by following a fringe group.

amother

Black

Wed, Nov 14 2018, 11:31 am

camp123 wrote:

Thanks for explaining. I understand what you are saying when it comes to putting oneself in danger. But is there an actual halacha that forbids smoking?Many Jews (religious and not) seem to smoke openly. Is it against halacha to eat foods that are clearly and known to be unhealthy? I think it’s debatable - some will say yes, some will say no. Guarding your health can mean different things to different people.
I agree that there are Rabbanim that are strongly recommending vaccination, especially during this outbreak. I would call it a recommendation by some rabbanim , not a actual halacha. In times of a dangerous outbreak, maybe one can argue it’s a halacha to get vaccinated or stay away from public areas because there is an immediate risk. But under regular circumstances, I’m not seeing where the halacha comes in.

Ravenclaw

Wed, Nov 14 2018, 11:33 am

southernbubby wrote:

The most basic scientific principle:
Correlation does not equal causation. Autistic symptoms come out at the same age that the first big dose of vaccines are given. Babies also tend to start crawling then. Does that mean that vaccinating helps kids develop their motor skills? As one poster mentioned on a different thread, autism can be detected through bloodwork as early as in the womb (I might be misquoting her but that was the general idea.)

Mommyg8

Wed, Nov 14 2018, 11:47 am

amother wrote:

When it comes to this, all of a sudden the Halacha is to do what’s normal ?
Because following Halacha by doing things like Wearing winter clothes and sheitals in 100 degree whether is very healthy and normal

The halacha, according to the poskim quoted, is to do normal hishtadlus for health. We obviously don't do what's normal for non-jews when it comes to following halacha (we don't eat cheeseburgers, even though that's very normal).

Mommyg8

Wed, Nov 14 2018, 11:50 am

Ravenclaw wrote:

True, but we don't really know either way. There have been no real studies proving or disproving, so there's no real way to know...

My theory is that those who were hurt by the shots would have been equally hurt (or more) by getting the disease itself...

And BTW, there is no blood test for autism, whether in the womb or out.

And it's just wrong to deny that there were those that were hurt by vaccines. It may be a small percentage, but there definitely were some that were damaged....

southernbubby

Wed, Nov 14 2018, 11:51 am

Ravenclaw wrote:

Autism may be a brain response to a viral illness either in a fetus or a infant. It probably doesn't matter how the body acquired the virus; whether it was a naturally acquired virus or one acquired by vaccine. It appears that women who have the flu during pregnancy have a higher risk of some type of autism appearing in the child. There are no proof about anything yet regarding autism. The biggest question is why it is so much more prevalent today and diagnosis and reporting is only part of the picture.

We do know that some children in the womb look different on ultrasound and those may turn out to have autism. The blood test for autism seems to still be in the experimental stages:
https://www.medicalnewstoday.c.....2.php

We also know that until modern times autism was rare but it is much more common today so I don't think it is fair to rule out any cause because it may have more than one cause. It is no longer classified in terms of Aspergers, or PDD, or any of the other terms regarding types of autism but in terms of severity on the spectrum.

When we don't have a cause, we can't rule out anything. What we do know, however is that when Japan, who has a high incidence of autism, delayed giving the MMR, the statistic for autism didn't change, leaving the impression that the MMR was not the cause of most autism.

I think that we simply don't have enough info and on a rare and individual basis, anything is possible, including a vaccine reaction.

amother

Black

Wed, Nov 14 2018, 11:57 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

What I’m hearing is that you may engage in unhealthy/ dangerous habits or activities as long as those are accepted and widespread in society.

Mommyg8

Wed, Nov 14 2018, 12:00 pm

amother wrote:

Many Rabbanim seem to forbid smoking. I'm guessing that the ones that smoke are not listening to that psak?

I think it is against halacha to eat food that is known to be clearly dangerous - but I don't really know ant food like that.