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Is living an "authentic life" contrary to "Torah life"
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amother
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Post Thu, Nov 15 2018, 9:22 pm
This is a question for discussion. I mean "Authentic" life to be following dreams. Trying to make a difference in the world. Despite running contrary to social norms. Contrary to what is perceived as "acceptable" or "normal".

Do we value people like Steve Jobs for example or Neil Armstrong? They did great things but nothing to do with Torah.

Should a Jew's world be only Torah and the rest of the people of the world everything else?

What if a Jew wants to make a difference to all of humanity, not just to other Jews in their home, on their block, in their zip code?

What if the "go to seminary, get married, have 8 kids, cook Shabbos meals, clean house, do laundry" plan is just too stifling and what is really meant for life is something like, for example, med school and discovering the cure for cancer or something fantastical like that? What if someone misses the calling because Jewish society expects other things?
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Cheiny




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 15 2018, 9:25 pm
amother wrote:
This is a question for discussion. I mean "Authentic" life to be following dreams. Trying to make a difference in the world. Despite running contrary to social norms. Contrary to what is perceived as "acceptable" or "normal".

Do we value people like Steve Jobs for example or Neil Armstrong? They did great things but nothing to do with Torah.

Should a Jew's world be only Torah and the rest of the people of the world everything else?

What if a Jew wants to make a difference to all of humanity, not just to other Jews in their home, on their block, in their zip code?

What if the "go to seminary, get married, have 8 kids, cook Shabbos meals, clean house, do laundry" plan is just too stifling and what is really meant for life is something like, for example, med school and discovering the cure for cancer or something fantastical like that? What if someone misses the calling because Jewish society expects other things?


Since when does Jewish society not allow for careers or making a difference in the world?!
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amother
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Post Thu, Nov 15 2018, 9:35 pm
My version of life - go out and do amazing things - and be Jewish while doing them. I wasn't brought up that my purpose in life is limited to raising children and taking care of a husband, and chesed.
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Maya




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 15 2018, 9:38 pm
I get what you’re saying, OP.
As much as people want to claim that the Torah allows for making a difference in the world, the reality is that very few religious Jews make it into those arenas. There has to be a reason for that, and it’s not because of our lack of capabilities or ambition.

Some of it is Torah, like not being able to work on Shabbos and all the days of yomim tovim , and some of it is the religious culture.

My opinion is that if someone wants to be a game changer of the kind you mention, he or she would have to compromise on some of the Torah and/or some of the culture.
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amother
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Post Thu, Nov 15 2018, 9:40 pm
Thanks Maya. You get what I'm trying to say.
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elisheva25




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 15 2018, 9:48 pm
There are big frum people out in the world . You can do both I that is truly your calling . I can’t rem his name he is famous frum scientist that contributed to the development I believe of the fiber optic network . You have to know your calling that’s all.
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Seas




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 15 2018, 9:52 pm
We believe that Hashem created this world and everything that exists is by His will.

We believe that He created us for a specific purpose, according to His infinite wisdom.

We believe that He informed us of our purpose, when, in His infinite kindness, He gave us the Torah on Mt. Sinai.

We believe that the ultimate fulfillment and achievement of a person is to reach their purpose as dictated by Hashem.

Any other aims and goals just get in the way of the above.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 15 2018, 9:57 pm
amother wrote:

What if the "go to seminary, get married, have 8 kids, cook Shabbos meals, clean house, do laundry" plan is just too stifling and what is really meant for life is something like, for example, med school and discovering the cure for cancer or something fantastical like that? What if someone misses the calling because Jewish society expects other things?


Considering how many people on imamother are doctors or married to doctors, I’d say the idea of Jews in the medical field isn’t exactly science fiction.

And different cancers need different cures, some of which have already been developed in extraordinary ways (often by Israeli researchers).
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Maya




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 15 2018, 10:01 pm
sequoia wrote:
Considering how many people on imamother are doctors or married to doctors, I’d say the idea of Jews in the medical field isn’t exactly science fiction.

And different cancers need different cures, some of which have already been developed in extraordinary ways (often by Israeli researchers).

But there’s a difference between being in the medical field versus having the availability to be involved in the kind of research that advances medicine. From what I know about research, it seems to be much more involving than being a physician in an office.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 15 2018, 10:03 pm
Maya wrote:
But there’s a difference between being in the medical field versus having the availability to be involved in the kind of research that advances medicine. From what I know about research, it seems to be much more involving than being a physician in an office.


There’s an imamother who’s in vaccine development.
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penguin




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 15 2018, 10:03 pm
This reminds me of Rabbi YY Jacobson's line - "They ask someone, which would you choose, Hashem or truth" and he says, of course Hashem.

Really silly, because Hashem is Truth so there can't be a contradiction.

Of course Hashem wants you to be your best authentic self. If He gave you certain unique abilities, He wants you to use them the best way possible.

Now, personally I wanted to cry when I read about the frum female physician in EY who would nurse her little baby and then go to the hospital for her 72 hour shift. It is not simple to raise a family well and be devoted to a career. Some choices are difficult and painful. But everyone has to make those choices in a real way, and those who try to fit in society's expectations may live a life of frustration.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 15 2018, 10:48 pm
There is nothing inherently not Torahdik about becoming a doctor and doing medical research or becoming a lawyer and a judge, or “following your dream.” Well, unless your dream is to be a prima ballerina or opera star. Granted it’s harder to get ahead in many fields if you’re shomer Shabbos, and it’s harder to make it in almost any field if you have children, but if you really want it that much you can find a way. Ruchie Freiier did.
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animeme




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 15 2018, 10:55 pm
zaq wrote:
There is nothing inherently not Torahdik about becoming a doctor and doing medical research or becoming a lawyer and a judge, or “following your dream.” Well, unless your dream is to be a prima ballerina or opera star. Granted it’s harder to get ahead in many fields if you’re shomer Shabbos, and it’s harder to make it in almost any field if you have children, but if you really want it that much you can find a way. Ruchie Freiier did.


Agreed. Though I would add that in certain areas, the need or desire to live in a frum community can also be limiting.
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leah233




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 15 2018, 11:00 pm

I mean "Authentic" life to be following dreams.


What if someone dreams of doing things that are universally considered morally wrong?


Do we value people like Steve Jobs for example or Neil Armstrong? They did great things but nothing to do with Torah.

Speaking for myself I don't value either of them more than any other decent person. In fact I don't even see the justification for the money spent on Neil Armstrong's moon walk.

Should a Jew's world be only Torah and the rest of the people of the world everything else?


A Jews life should only be guided by Torah. That does not negate their ability to accomplish most (not all) things the world needs.

What if a Jew wants to make a difference to all of humanity, not just to other Jews in their home, on their block, in their zip code?

Most people who want to change the world don't even up changing themselves. I don't mean this in a haskafic context but it is extremely unlikely that someone who has the ability to change all of humanity for the better would be on imamother .

What if the "go to seminary, get married, have 8 kids, cook Shabbos meals, clean house, do laundry" plan is just too stifling and what is really meant for life is something like, for example, med school and discovering the cure for cancer or something fantastical like that? What if someone misses the calling because Jewish society expects other things?

As above I question the accuracy of this dichotomy. If someone has time for and interest in imamother it is unlikely they are the person who could find the cure for cancer. No matter what they would have spent their life doing.

However, if they are here , now is your chance to change all of humanity. Convince them to get out of here and use their talents in a wiser manner


Last edited by leah233 on Thu, Nov 15 2018, 11:21 pm; edited 3 times in total
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tigerwife




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 15 2018, 11:07 pm
I’m not sure what you mean by “authentic”, because a SAHM who prides herself in her sparkling home and gourmet meals and impeccably dressed children is just as authentic as the girl boss who started a now Forbes 500 company which provides hundreds of jobs and sells a product that improves everyone’s lives.

However, I will say that the latter is very, very difficult to achieve while still maintaining a functional household and family. Not impossible. Harder. Yet I know many, many women following their dreams and starting businesses, dealing with corporate America, pursuing medical careers, and have yet to hear how this goes against any hashkafa. In fact, many of these women supported husbands in kollel.

Forget about what you imagine the neighbors may say. What is holding you back from making a positive impact on the world?
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Maya




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 15 2018, 11:08 pm
zaq wrote:
There is nothing inherently not Torahdik about becoming a doctor and doing medical research or becoming a lawyer and a judge, or “following your dream.” Well, unless your dream is to be a prima ballerina or opera star. Granted it’s harder to get ahead in many fields if you’re shomer Shabbos, and it’s harder to make it in almost any field if you have children, but if you really want it that much you can find a way. Ruchie Freiier did.

Perhaps, but Ruchy Freier is hardly a game changer in greater society, and also, being a judge is not exactly all consuming or a career that’s not family friendly.
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amother
Floralwhite


 

Post Thu, Nov 15 2018, 11:17 pm
Op- what are you looking for? Are you asking is one allowed to pursue a career that will benefit society such as a doctor, scientist, or therapist. I'd say the answer is of course you can.
If your question is whether those fields are truly valued and help in the highest regard, the answer is no. In my house and many others we have pictures of great tzaddikim on the walls. We don't have any pictures of people who had successful careers.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 15 2018, 11:18 pm
Maya wrote:
But there’s a difference between being in the medical field versus having the availability to be involved in the kind of research that advances medicine. From what I know about research, it seems to be much more involving than being a physician in an office.


I was waiting for an opportunity to post this, and here it is:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/w.....9020/

It's not only frum women that have this problem, it's women, period.
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naturalmom5




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 15 2018, 11:34 pm
I remember the old Jep books used to have thought provoking questions like this..

There was an interesting article, should a young man be a mediocre yungerman in Collel who learns 2 hours a day and goofs off the rest or become MBD ,,,
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essie14




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 16 2018, 1:11 am
amother wrote:
My version of life - go out and do amazing things - and be Jewish while doing them. I wasn't brought up that my purpose in life is limited to raising children and taking care of a husband, and chesed.

Exactly what I was going to say.
Yes, there are some limitations on career options if you want to be shomer Shabbat but not all that much.
The husband and kids thing is universal, not specifically Jewish. Women around the world are making that decision every day. As they say, you can have it all, just not at the same time.
I know many orthodox women who are doing amazing things in their fields (especially in Israel). Medical, science, technology, etc.
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