El Al passengers- seriously?

Raisin

Sun, Nov 18 2018, 9:25 am

It does seem there were people who were getting upset with the crew. These may have been religious Jews, (worried about flying on shabbos) non religious Jews, (upset to be making a stop in Athens) or anything in between.

Religious or not, Israelis often seem to act in ridiculous ways on flights. My husband almost missed a connecting flight once because an israeli man on flight one from ben gurion refused to allow his hand luggage to be put under the plane. He pretended not to understand english and was just acting in an insufferable manner for a very long time.

zaq

Sun, Nov 18 2018, 11:57 am

achayl wrote:

I am sorry but it's their own fault. We rely on instant travel nowadays and it's wrong.
There are halachos about traveling on a Friday, you are not supposed to. If you must, then you need to travel with essentials like challahs and grape juice etc in case you run into this issue.
To get on a plane on a Thursday evening to fly to EY and land on Friday is just wrong. There are so many things that can go wrong.

This. I would be leery even of taking a Thursday night flight from Israel to the States, and wouldn’t DREAM of flying TO Israel Thursday night. Even in summer. Because things happen, that’s why.

Petra

Sun, Nov 18 2018, 1:36 pm

The story of how 150+ Jews were accommodated at last minute warms my heart. I'm also glad to know El Al will not fly on Shabbos. I assumed but did not know for sure. I don't fly often.

El Al did land before Shabbos. It just wasn't at Ben Gurion.

Kol hakovod to the shluchim in Athens. The hotel. The guests that made Shabbos.

salamanca

Sun, Nov 18 2018, 7:08 pm

I agree that a 5 hour window is not remotely a large enough cushion. This is a transatlantic flight for goodness sake, not an Amtrak from Philadelphia to Washington D. C.! And frankly, I don't see how people have the right to decide "I am going to take that risk" because it is important for me to be home with my family for Shabbos. Among other things, you are relying on others to make Shabbos for you at the last minute. From what I read, the passengers barely got to their rooms before shkiah. People consider this whole story to be a kiddush Hashem - look at all of these people who got off the plane because being shomer shabbos is more important than anything. My way of looking at is: if shabbos is more important than anything, you shouldn't have booked that flight to begin with. Just because El Al offers the flight doesn't mean you need to take it.

naturalmom5

Sun, Nov 18 2018, 7:23 pm

salamanca wrote:

Well, aren't you the Grinch who stole Shabbos.... Exploding anger

Granted, ElAl shouldn't of deceived the passengers

Granted, I would not leave NY on Thursday nite in the summer... But once we have such a beautiful achdus moment and such a heartwarming story of what transpired in Athens, can't we be happy for a day or 2.

I say this as one of most cynical members of this forum

salamanca

Sun, Nov 18 2018, 7:46 pm

Sorry naturalmom5: I don't consider what happened in Athens to be a heartwarming story because it almost came at the expense of people being mechalel shabbos, for (I would have to say the overwhelming majority of the passengers) not a good enough reason. And unfortunately, I would say that for most people, there is no lesson learned here.

WhatFor

Sun, Nov 18 2018, 8:57 pm

salamanca wrote:

I think the way the Athens community responded is heartwarming.

As I keep saying, I also think there's just inexperience on what to expect when flying. It's not uncommon to be delayed after boarding. There are lines of planes that need clearance to take off. Sometimes there's a backlog for some reason and you just wait in line. There you are, just sitting and waiting. Happened to me with non El Al. Sometimes there's a mechanical issue with the plane and they have to get a mechanic in who isn't at the airport. Again, happened to me with El Al. You sit, wait, watch your movies. I've seen a compartment on a plane with a label that indicated there were snacks specifically for delays. Seasoned travelers know not to take any sleeping pills or other travel meds until the plane is in the air.

People who care about Shabbat need to know about this. If there was a five hour buffer and you're boarding two hours late, you now have a three hour buffer. Don't board.

Raisin

Mon, Nov 19 2018, 5:17 am

I don't think its necessarily wrong to travel on a thursday night if very necessary, but at the very least pack in your hand luggage challa rolls and shelf stable food items if you do get stuck for shabbos. Not grape juice since that will be taken away at security but you can make kiddush on challah.

I assume most of these people had good reason to take this flight - probably working or on business trips and wanted to get back to families for shabbos.

Iymnok

Mon, Nov 19 2018, 9:34 am

Apparently it’s illegal to disembark from a plane if your luggage is already loaded. Since they were already on the tarmac (for a couple hours) it was not so simple to just let them off.
If El-Al flies on shabbos, they have a huge fine to pay.

WhatFor

Mon, Nov 19 2018, 10:25 am

Iymnok wrote:

This whole incident made me curious about a person's rights to disembark a plane during tarmac delay and I found something. In the US, a pilot generally has to let you off after four hours of tarmac delay for international flights and three hours for domestic flights. My understanding is that the time to calculate this delay begins tolling from when the plane doors close (a person could presumably exit the plane on their own before that).

https://www.transportation.gov.....elays

According to the links posted earlier in this thread, there was a tarmac delay of approximately 2.5 hours before the plane took off.

Going forward, if you're wondering how to calculate whether your international flight will land too close to Shabbat, add four hours to when you actually begin boarding your flight. Then find out the tarmac delay laws in your destination country and add that time to your calculation as well. These times should be in addition to the time one would reasonably expect to clear customs and travel to wherever you're staying (unless challah in the airport is an option for you).

bassarah

Mon, Nov 19 2018, 10:56 am

I’m really not getting this whole “moser nefesh” for Shabbos thing.. As others have said they took a very risky flight to begin with, and what does getting off the plane in Athens have to do with being moser nefesh for Shabbos?? The secular people also had to get off, as it is against El Al policy to fly passengers on Shabbos.
So basically the Mesirus Nefesh was that they didn’t board the Isra Air flight from Athens to blatantly be Mechalil Shabbos?? Scratching Head

Raisin

Mon, Nov 19 2018, 11:16 am

For goodness sake there was a freak snowstorm. Millions of New Yorkers, the transport system, the weather reporting system were all taken by surprise. If this storm had happened the exact same time the following day, how many shomer shabbos commuters would have been stuck travelling home for shabbos from NYC to NJ or other places? Would you abandon your car/cellphone/money etc and walk home?

There were shomer shabbos passengers who told El AL they would get off the plane at their own expense in NY.

Raisin

Mon, Nov 19 2018, 1:18 pm

salamanca wrote:

yes- but once the snowstorm was an eventuality - don't get on the plane to begin with.

Don't go to work on friday either. There might be a worse then expected snowstorm or accident and it could take 7 hours to get home.

happymom123

Mon, Nov 19 2018, 1:20 pm

Raisin wrote:

It wasn't a complete surprise. It had been on the weather forecast for over a week and we all knew it was coming.

salamanca

Mon, Nov 19 2018, 1:32 pm

Raisin: How can you possibly compare a transatlantic flight to regular day to day commuting? And in the latter cases, you can if you must, pull over somewhere and take a subway or even walk to a place you can spend Shabbos.
I know my husband tries to get home as early as possible before Shabbos. When he took the train, he monitored the info on that website and now that he drives, he stays on top of traffic and weather reports.
In addition, as I said before, there can be few people who had a reason they had to be on that flight other than wanting to be home with their families for Shabbos. Few working people can stay and work from home on erev Shabbos and Y"T and still have a parnasah.
Ein Somchin al Hanes

Raisin

Mon, Nov 19 2018, 3:01 pm

Look, I probably would be hesitant about taking a flight landing so close to shabbos too. But afaik there is no halacha against it.

I know someone who was driving somewhere with a newborn for shabbos an hours drive away. They left with plenty of time but they got stuck in insane traffic and there was no eruv so they had to break shabbos to get to their destination. Even without a baby many highways are not safe to walk so driving somewhere can result in having to break shabbos.

BH neither me nor my husband are forced to commute long distances for work so I am not judging those who do.