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Why is the Torah so simplistic about the avos/emahos?
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octopus




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 18 2018, 11:58 am
None of these "stories" are simple at all. Mechiras yosef is extremely hard to understand. In my limited understanding, the brothers convened a beis din against yosef and deemed him a mored b'malchus. In Yosef's dream he conveyed that all the brothers bow down to him, but Yehuda was the one that was supposed to get the malchus. This was still no excuse to try to kill yosef, but this is how they justified it. But there were kings that came out of yosef- ish boshes and mefi boshes.
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holylandgirl




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 18 2018, 12:20 pm
OP, You are asking excellent questions and noone here has answered you correctly. The idea that it's to show they're fallible just like us is simply not true and a terribly anti-Torah Hashkafah.
I don't think it's wise or practical to answer you here but there are full and satisfactory answers. I have learnt them in depth and can assure you they make a lot of sense and an understanding of how to read the Torah is eye-opening. Please ask a Rabbi who really knows his stuff. If it really bothers you and you don't find an answer, PM me and I'll try respond. (Obviously such a multi-faceted question cannot be answered here and you will likely only get more confused by answers here).
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amother
Amber


 

Post Sun, Nov 18 2018, 12:26 pm
holylandgirl wrote:
OP, You are asking excellent questions and noone here has answered you correctly. The idea that it's to show they're fallible just like us is simply not true and a terribly anti-Torah Hashkafah.
I don't think it's wise or practical to answer you here but there are full and satisfactory answers. I have learnt them in depth and can assure you they make a lot of sense and an understanding of how to read the Torah is eye-opening. Please ask a Rabbi who really knows his stuff. If it really bothers you and you don't find an answer, PM me and I'll try respond. (Obviously such a multi-faceted question cannot be answered here and you will likely only get more confused by answers here).


I'm sorry, but I beg to differ. The idea that to show that our Forefathers were infallible is the terribly anti-Torah Hashkafah.

There could be other explanations for the mention of their errors, but that doesn't discount the statement above.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 18 2018, 1:02 pm
Look, aren’t all people fallible by definition? Errare humanum est.
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Ravenclaw




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 18 2018, 1:46 pm
holylandgirl wrote:
OP, You are asking excellent questions and noone here has answered you correctly. The idea that it's to show they're fallible just like us is simply not true and a terribly anti-Torah Hashkafah.
I don't think it's wise or practical to answer you here but there are full and satisfactory answers. I have learnt them in depth and can assure you they make a lot of sense and an understanding of how to read the Torah is eye-opening. Please ask a Rabbi who really knows his stuff. If it really bothers you and you don't find an answer, PM me and I'll try respond. (Obviously such a multi-faceted question cannot be answered here and you will likely only get more confused by answers here).


Please answer here. I am sure many of us would benefit from hearing your answer.
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chestnut




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 18 2018, 2:35 pm
holylandgirl wrote:
OP, You are asking excellent questions and noone here has answered you correctly. The idea that it's to show they're fallible just like us is simply not true and a terribly anti-Torah Hashkafah.
I don't think it's wise or practical to answer you here but there are full and satisfactory answers. I have learnt them in depth and can assure you they make a lot of sense and an understanding of how to read the Torah is eye-opening. Please ask a Rabbi who really knows his stuff. If it really bothers you and you don't find an answer, PM me and I'll try respond. (Obviously such a multi-faceted question cannot be answered here and you will likely only get more confused by answers here).


Way to put down many people at once
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holylandgirl




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 18 2018, 2:44 pm
chestnut wrote:
Way to put down many people at once


You're right. Apologies it sounded like that, not my intention at all. I wasn't thinking about the people, just that the answers provided so far were insufficient to answer OP's question.
What I mean to say is- OP keep searching for your answer because it isn't on these pages yet.
Again, I apologise to anyone I offended, that was insensitive of me.
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holylandgirl




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 18 2018, 2:48 pm
Ravenclaw wrote:
Please answer here. I am sure many of us would benefit from hearing your answer.


I'm sorry but it's not something that can be contained in a post here- it's more like the contents of at least one shiur. I think it's reasonable that big questions can't be answered in a few short lines and need proper study.
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amother
Amber


 

Post Sun, Nov 18 2018, 2:49 pm
holylandgirl wrote:
I'm sorry but it's not something that can be contained in a post here- it's more like the contents of at least one shiur. I think it's reasonable that big questions can't be answered in a few short lines and need proper study.


You don't need to provide all the details leading up to a conclusion. Just post the conclusion.
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amother
Magenta


 

Post Mon, Nov 19 2018, 3:45 am
In regard to Yaakov kissing Rachel, one of the classic meforshim (I forget which one right now) discusses different types of kissing. One is the greeting after I haven’t seen you in a long time kind, which could be what Yaakov did.

My main recommendation is to learn.
If you read the Chumash only in translation and summarize the stories simplistically, you miss out on the richness of what is hidden in the text through the different terminologies, the brevity in some places, the expansiveness in others (eliezer going to find a wife comes to mind as an example of the latter).

Use medrash, essentially the first meforash and other meforshim to uncover the layers and you can never read the same simple stories again.

A great resource out there now is sefaria.org. You can choose a possuk and it will hyperlink to medrash and meforshim and more on that possuk. Not everything is fully translated, and it is open source, so some of their material is not necessarily translated perfectly.

Also online shiurim on parsha or tanach. I found myself recently listening to Chana slavaticki on Chabad.org going through Avraham and Sara’s stories in the Torah and with the lens of medrash and different meforshim.

Anon: because I teach Chumash and talk about these resources a lot.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 19 2018, 4:07 am
I don't think the Torah is "simplistic," but rather matter-of-fact.
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dankbar




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 19 2018, 6:50 am
The entire mechiras yosef needed to happen because the Jews needed to go thru galus mitzrayim in order receive the Torah. It was an entire chain of events that was pre-ochestrated from Hashem.

The beauty from the imahos came from within because of their kedusha their faces shone radiantly.

The reason Yakov kept learning with yosef & his bros interpreted as favoritism was bruach Hakodesh he knew he will be apart from yosef for 22 years & won't be able to learn with him then. He was trying to be proactive & chap arein & make up or lost time in advance....

Everything has a chesban. Every word that's written in Torah has a reason.

Also the bigger tzadik the more finely every Chet gets sifted & judged by Hashem. Every little mistake, every little thing is a big thing compared to their greatness.

When miriam spoke a half lashon horah once she got punished.
Same with others because they were so great.
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amother
Mustard


 

Post Mon, Nov 19 2018, 7:52 am
dankbar wrote:
The entire mechiras yosef needed to happen because the Jews needed to go thru galus mitzrayim in order receive the Torah. It was an entire chain of events that was pre-ochestrated from Hashem.

The beauty from the imahos came from within because of their kedusha their faces shone radiantly.

The reason Yakov kept learning with yosef & his bros interpreted as favoritism was bruach Hakodesh he knew he will be apart from yosef for 22 years & won't be able to learn with him then. He was trying to be proactive & chap arein & make up or lost time in advance....

Everything has a chesban. Every word that's written in Torah has a reason.

Also the bigger tzadik the more finely every Chet gets sifted & judged by Hashem. Every little mistake, every little thing is a big thing compared to their greatness.

When miriam spoke a half lashon horah once she got punished.
Same with others because they were so great.



These are all nice answers but are all difficult to understand.

1. Yes, Klal yisroel had to go thru galus Mitzrayim. We needed Yosef to be a leader in Mitzrayim. Hashem couldn't think think of a better way to orchestrate these events without having the brothers trying to murder Yosef?

2. If the imohos beauty was on the inside, let the torah say that. The loshon of the pesukeim say the were good looking woman who men lusted after. Doesn't sound like it means the inside.

3. Even if Yosef wanted to chap arein, that cause the shevatim to be jealous to the extent they tried to kill him? Very odd.

These are just so many stories like this in these parshas. For the most part the answers often involve "when it says this, it really meant that".

I'm also bothered by the story with the stones around Yackov's head. The pasuk first says stones and a few pesukin later it says a single stone. We all knoww the famous answer that the stones were fighting and so hashem made them a single stone. I wish the torah would have recounted this very important story. It just makes the pesukim look contradictory without this incredible pshat.
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amother
Magenta


 

Post Mon, Nov 19 2018, 8:06 am
amother wrote:
These are all nice answers but are all difficult to understand.

1. Yes, Klal yisroel had to go thru galus Mitzrayim. We needed Yosef to be a leader in Mitzrayim. Hashem couldn't think think of a better way to orchestrate these events without having the brothers trying to murder Yosef?

Of course!
The Shevatim had bechira chofshis, and their actual actions reverberated negatively through generations. 10 הרוגי מלכות that we read about on Yom Kippur

2. If the imohos beauty was on the inside, let the torah say that. The loshon of the pesukeim say the were good looking woman who men lusted after. Doesn't sound like it means the inside.

Lust? Where do you get that from the pshat?

Also יפת תואר ויפת מראה are not drop-dead gorgeous. One describes physical appearance and the other the persons inner self (I think it’s ramban about Sara that differentiates between these two different terms)

3. Even if Yosef wanted to chap arein, that cause the shevatim to be jealous to the extent they tried to kill him? Very odd.

Really- you need to learn the story in depth. With various meforshim, both classic and more modern. You’re passing judgement with too little info
It, like the akeida, always strikes me as some of the most complicated confusing parshios.

These are just so many stories like this in these parshas. For the most part the answers often involve "when it says this, it really meant that".

I'm also bothered by the story with the stones around Yackov's head. The pasuk first says stones and a few pesukin later it says a single stone. We all knoww the famous answer that the stones were fighting and so hashem made them a single stone. I wish the torah would have recounted this very important story. It just makes the pesukim look contradictory without this incredible pshat.


Pesukim looking contradictory means go and investigate and go and learn. Yes, there are multiple meanings which we wouldn’t get the same way if it was all spelled out for us.
This way there are many layers. That is the beauty of it all.
And lots of the amazing stories are not spelled out.
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amother
Oak


 

Post Mon, Nov 19 2018, 8:14 am
Everything was more simplistic back then and the world was more primitive. Those were very different times.
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Cmon be nice




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 19 2018, 8:14 am
mommy3b2c wrote:
I totally hear you OP and have a lot of the same questions. I mean, even brothers that don’t get along don’t actually KILL each other. It all seems very odd to me. But I just accept that there is an explanation even if I don’t quite understand it.

Ever heard of Kain and Havel?
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 19 2018, 8:37 am
amother wrote:
In regard to Yaakov kissing Rachel, one of the classic meforshim (I forget which one right now) discusses different types of kissing. One is the greeting after I haven’t seen you in a long time kind, which could be what Yaakov did.

My main recommendation is to learn.
If you read the Chumash only in translation and summarize the stories simplistically, you miss out on the richness of what is hidden in the text through the different terminologies, the brevity in some places, the expansiveness in others (eliezer going to find a wife comes to mind as an example of the latter).

Use medrash, essentially the first meforash and other meforshim to uncover the layers and you can never read the same simple stories again.

A great resource out there now is sefaria.org. You can choose a possuk and it will hyperlink to medrash and meforshim and more on that possuk. Not everything is fully translated, and it is open source, so some of their material is not necessarily translated perfectly.

Also online shiurim on parsha or tanach. I found myself recently listening to Chana slavaticki on Chabad.org going through Avraham and Sara’s stories in the Torah and with the lens of medrash and different meforshim.

Anon: because I teach Chumash and talk about these resources a lot.


You'd probably like R' Dovid Forhman's work.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 19 2018, 8:42 am
amother wrote:
These are all nice answers but are all difficult to understand.

1. Yes, Klal yisroel had to go thru galus Mitzrayim. We needed Yosef to be a leader in Mitzrayim. Hashem couldn't think think of a better way to orchestrate these events without having the brothers trying to murder Yosef?

2. If the imohos beauty was on the inside, let the torah say that. The loshon of the pesukeim say the were good looking woman who men lusted after. Doesn't sound like it means the inside.

3. Even if Yosef wanted to chap arein, that cause the shevatim to be jealous to the extent they tried to kill him? Very odd.

These are just so many stories like this in these parshas. For the most part the answers often involve "when it says this, it really meant that".

I'm also bothered by the story with the stones around Yackov's head. The pasuk first says stones and a few pesukin later it says a single stone. We all knoww the famous answer that the stones were fighting and so hashem made them a single stone. I wish the torah would have recounted this very important story. It just makes the pesukim look contradictory without this incredible pshat.


Actually, weren't they beautiful? Avrohom noticing Sarah with different eyes, to see how others would see her?
Then again, I heard a wonderful thought from Rebbetzin Heller, IIRC, about Esther. The pasuk says she was noseis chen, which people understand to mean that she found favor in people's eyes. The way Rebbetzin Heller explains it is, her nature was to find the kernel of good in everyone; she saw the best in everyone and that chen is what people noticed, that she brought out goodness in them, and they were attracted to her. This was even true of Achashveirosh who evidently had some trace of humanity.

About the stones: is it that they were actually one, or that they were used for one purpose? I've heard that Yaakov set them up around him as a protection from animals. When the animals would get close in order to get to Yaakov they would have to first see his face, and once they did, they would be so in awe that the natural fear animals should have for humans would kick in. Sorry I don't have a source.
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octopus




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 19 2018, 8:45 am
amother wrote:
Pesukim looking contradictory means go and investigate and go and learn. Yes, there are multiple meanings which we wouldn’t get the same way if it was all spelled out for us.
This way there are many layers. That is the beauty of it all.
And lots of the amazing stories are not spelled out.


adding to the layers: there is not an extra letter in the torah. we learn chumash from a sefer, but really the way it is written on a klaf there are no spaces between words, which means that entire pesukim can be divided up differently. extra words would change the meaning of everything.
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Cmon be nice




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 19 2018, 8:52 am
amother wrote:
In parishes vayishlach, 35:22.

There are many medrashim about this, many of them beg for more questions. One pshat is that reuvein was protecting his yerusha because after being with bilhah his father wouldn't want to be with her anymore and he wouldn't have to divide his yerusha more than necessary. Another pshat is that since yackov loved rochel more (again, what??? Yackov aveinu played favorites with the emohos? This continued when the Torah explicitly says he loved yosef more than his other children. So strange!) Reuvein was concerned that his father would go to his mothers maid after rochels death. In an attempt to prevent this, reuvein was intimate with her. I'm not sure why this would necessarily stop yackov from being with bilhah, but this is what's brought down. The are other pshatim as well.

Im pretty sure thst rashi says he didnt literally sleep with her but moved yaakovs bed from Bilhahs tent to Leah, but since he messed up with their sleeping arangemen, the torah writes he lived with her
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