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Forum
-> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
Ema of 5
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 Tue, Nov 20 2018, 1:12 pm
| naturalmom5 wrote: | | This is still focusing on externals.... What about middos and bain adom l chavero.. Every SINGLE OTD girl I ever spoke to, told me very awful stories of "exemplary" behavior of her teachers and principals.. |
I said nothing about not focusing on externals. I was talking specifically about discussing how the teachers dress. That’s what this thread is about. Should they follow the same rules. I can give you plenty of my own stories about what lead me where....
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amother
Royalblue
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Tue, Nov 20 2018, 2:11 pm
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There should be separate rules for faculty and separate rules for students. If there is a school uniform, should the teachers wear it too?
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amother
Jade
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Tue, Nov 20 2018, 3:06 pm
I work in a non-Jewish private school. I have "rules" to follow as well. Everyone has to dress at the very least, business casual. Not a problem for me. Social media accounts have to be on lockdown, meaning FB profiles as private as possible, Instagram private, etc. Students in the school can't wear boots (in winter, they can wear the boots to school but must change when they get in the building) and so staff cannot wear boots either. Teachers can't eat in front of students (unless there's a medical reason) except for snack time.
We don't have any rules for outside of school. Of course actions speak just as loudly as words. So if a teacher was to go out with her friends and got very drunk and did some stupid things that were caught on camera, and the school found out about it, then yea, there'd be some repercussions.
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amother
Aquamarine
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Tue, Nov 20 2018, 3:09 pm
I think its a known fact that teachers and students have different roles which is why teachers should not have to follow the same rules as the students. The students who are resentful should understand that teachers have different rules and are evaluated differently.
For example, teachers have to come prepared with lesson plans and have to grade the assignments and tests while students have to do homework, study, and be engaged in class. I could go on and on but their roles are different so it makes sense there are different rules for teachers and students.
However, with regards to the rule about following the school's tznius guidelines, it makes sense if a school doesn't want their student body to see the teachers dress to a "lower tznius standard" but then that school may be more limited in who they hire.also, I'm wondering if a [gentile] who refuses to dress "appropriately can then say there's discrimination against her bec of how she dresses???
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Amarante
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Tue, Nov 20 2018, 3:32 pm
Teachers of whatever religious persuasion need to dress in an appropriately modest manner. Most people adhere to standards of dress code whatever those are.
However, I think it is unreasonable to expect a teacher to follow specific non-universal dress codes. There are different ways in which a frum women is considered to be tzniously dressed - I don't think it is difficult for a child to understand that. Moreover it might be an important lesson that one way is not necessarily the only and right way and that tznious is not necessarily so many inches below or above the ankle or knee or whatever other more restrictive interpretations there are.
And the converse could be true - a woman could be following very specific guidelines and still be less tzunious in appearance than another woman.
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amother
Black
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Tue, Nov 20 2018, 4:04 pm
| Amarante wrote: | Teachers of whatever religious persuasion need to dress in an appropriately modest manner. Most people adhere to standards of dress code whatever those are.
However, I think it is unreasonable to expect a teacher to follow specific non-universal dress codes. There are different ways in which a frum women is considered to be tzniously dressed - I don't think it is difficult for a child to understand that. Moreover it might be an important lesson that one way is not necessarily the only and right way and that tznious is not necessarily so many inches below or above the ankle or knee or whatever other more restrictive interpretations there are.
And the converse could be true - a woman could be following very specific guidelines and still be less tzunious in appearance than another woman. |
I agree. I think it's healthy for kids to see the different ways in which a frum women can be tzniusly dressed. It allows for exposure to the larger Jewish world out there, than only their tight circles.
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amother
Green
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Tue, Nov 20 2018, 4:25 pm
| amother wrote: | Viznits monsey principal does not wear a covered sheitel, and many many teachers don't wear covered wigs either. They have many litvish/yeshivish teachers.
Satmer school in Willi the teachers have to wear collars and cover their wigs. |
She wears an acrylic sheitel when she goes to work. She does not wear such wig anywhere else.
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amother
Cyan
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Tue, Nov 20 2018, 4:51 pm
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Amother green, it doesnt matter what wig she wears, it's an open wig. Whats an acrylic wig? They dont have a rule that teachers have to cover their wigs.
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amother
Babypink
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Tue, Nov 20 2018, 5:06 pm
Viznitz Monsey has rules for teachers but they are different than the rules for the students or parents. The yiddish (limudei kodesh) teachers must always abide by the same rules as the students/parents as they are considered role models for the girls. English (limudei chol) teachers depends. If the teacher is a graduate or a parent, the rules are stricter. Otherwise, there are rules for in school and that's it. No, they don't need to cover their wigs, but yes, they do need to wear short(ish) wigs and beige tights. They also need to wear collars or a scarf or something with a lapel so that the neck isn't open. Sleeves till the wristbone, only dark color shoes, etc. No rule against driving for English teachers.
Now for my opinion: You hire the person, not specific rules. If you feel like this person as she is now is a role model for your students, hire her. If not, don't. For the girls it becomes a real choizek when they see the teacher once like this and once like that. It's demeaning to the taecher too, as if she isn't "holy" enough. I once taught in a chassidishe school where there were no rules for teachers. They did extensive research on every potential hiree to see if her standards are up to par to the school. If they liked your hashkafos and standards, you were hired regardless of color tights. I think that teaches the students a much more powerful lesson: You can wear black tights and be super frum! It teaches acceptance of other kinds of Jews. It shows there are different VALID derachim out there and though it's not our derech, we think she has what to offer.
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librarygirl
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Tue, Nov 20 2018, 5:42 pm
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Should teachers not be allowed to wear makeup because students can't? Some things are just not age appropriate nothing to do with religion. I think that goes for the nail polish too.
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flmommy
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Tue, Nov 20 2018, 5:59 pm
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What if the school hires non Jewish teachers? I can imagine having them wear a skirt but a wig? Or schools with strict rules woulfny hire non Jewish teachers?
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amother
Cyan
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Tue, Nov 20 2018, 6:08 pm
Of course some things are age appropriate, im not talking about these type of things. I'm talking more about this: we had a teacher in our Williamsburg school she wore so much makeup, mascara and eye shadow, a stunning long sleek wig. In my opinion, a teacher should not look like this, especially if she wants to be respected by her students.
Some teachers didnt shut their phones in class, some wore red tops, the principal reeked of perfume. When students see this, they dont respect the teachers as much and may be upset as why the teachers are allowed and the students not.
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amother
Cyan
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Tue, Nov 20 2018, 6:10 pm
Librarygirl, no a frum teacher should not be wearing colored nail polish in school.
Flmommy, I dont think many frum schools hire non Jewish teachers. But if some do, I'm sure theres a dress code.
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Ema of 5
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Tue, Nov 20 2018, 6:13 pm
| amother wrote: | Librarygirl, no a frum teacher should not be wearing colored nail polish in school.
Flmommy, I dont think many frum schools hire non Jewish teachers. But if some do, I'm sure theres a dress code. |
Sure they do, especially for high school.
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cm
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Tue, Nov 20 2018, 6:19 pm
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May I go on a tangent? I'm astonished that teachers are on their phones during class. Never mind whether or not students will find it unfair; it's simply unprofessional. In my industry, using a phone while working would be grounds for a disciplinary plan.
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amother
Cyan
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Tue, Nov 20 2018, 6:20 pm
I'm assuming the schools that hire non Jewish teachers, have a dress code for them.
But the students dont expect non Jewish teachers to look tzenuis and refind. But they do expect it from their frum teachers who are supposed to be their role models.
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rzab
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Wed, Dec 05 2018, 2:09 pm
| cm wrote: | | May I go on a tangent? I'm astonished that teachers are on their phones during class. Never mind whether or not students will find it unfair; it's simply unprofessional. In my industry, using a phone while working would be grounds for a disciplinary plan. |
Except as a teacher, I have to take attendance online during the first 5 minutes of class with no computer in the room.
I also often use the timer to help us pace ourselves
When the students are working, I sometimes mark papers and the calculator is very helpful...
I've gotten to school and the printer is broken so I use my phone to access my class notes.
occasionally when a student has asked me a question I don't know the answer to, I've taken out my phone to Google it with the class.
I have never used it for personal use in class, but I think it's valuable to teach them how to use phones in an appropriate way bc they aren't going anywhere any time soon
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amother
Tangerine
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Wed, Dec 05 2018, 2:21 pm
my 8 year old d d recently asked me why her school requires their non-jewish teachers to dress tzniusdikly. she didn't think they should have to, - they aren't jewish! I asked her what if they hired a jewish teacher who didn't dress according to the tznius rules the school has for the kids. she saw the issue... I thought it was a great questiion though 
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amother
Ivory
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Wed, Dec 05 2018, 2:38 pm
| amother wrote: | | my 8 year old d d recently asked me why her school requires their non-jewish teachers to dress tzniusdikly. she didn't think they should have to, - they aren't jewish! I asked her what if they hired a jewish teacher who didn't dress according to the tznius rules the school has for the kids. she saw the issue... I thought it was a great questiion though |
the way people dress sets a tone.
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amother
Tangerine
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Wed, Dec 05 2018, 2:54 pm
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if the teachers wore "slacks" it would still be professional. she wasn't asking why they can't wear spaghetti straps.
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