How to help families that moved to the "wrong" community

amother

Forestgreen

Fri, Nov 23 2018, 10:34 am

I live OOT, in a mid-sized American community that a lot of people consider moving to, because of low house prices and a reputation for friendliness. There are two main neighborhoods. One is pretty yeshivish, one is a mix. The yeshivish one has cheaper houses.

Recently there have been quite a few BT families who moved to the yeshivish neighborhood and are very unhappy. I'm trying to help them but it's been hard. I'm a BT and live in the yeshivish neighborhood. I don't love certain things, but overall it's a good fit and we're BH happy, and I feel it's a good environment for my kids to grow up in. It's a nice place, with nice people.

The families we're trying to help are BTs who haven't ever lived in an FFB yeshivish type community, until now. They're having huge adjustment issues realizing no matter how accomplished they are in the secular world, it doesn't translate into status in their new community. They're also having culture shock realizing that the mentality is so different compared to what they're used to. They feel offended that the community is not as open and warm as what they expected. They don't like the cultural norms where families often don't invite other families for seudos, because they truly don't understand the mentality of minimizing socializing between non-related people of the opposite gender. They also don't understand that most families have almost no "free time," since the parents work very hard, and making sure the husband is kovea ittim is a priority. There isn't a lot of time for stam socializing. The Rabbanim they've gone to for advice haven't really been a good fit either. They don't understand the BTs' perspectives.

My husband and I have different approaches for how to best help these families. One approach is to encourage them to explore other communities that might be a better fit. The other approach is to encourage them to find a group of like-minded people from similar backgrounds here, to become their primary social group. There are enough people like them that that's a real option. A third option, the one these families want, is that the community will change. I don't know why they're so stuck on this dream. It's not realistic.

I put this post in the chinuch category because one of my main concerns is for the children. We want them to feel connected and part of the community. It isn't healthy not to be. I'm very worried about the families, but especially about the children.

What are your experiences with this type of scenario? How can we help them best?

oneofakind

Fri, Nov 23 2018, 11:24 am

In my in-town yeshivah community, I'm a bit in the middle -not BT or OOT but not part of the yeshiva either so I've seen both sides. My BT and OOT friends had each other but it wasn't enough. Many had to send their kids out for high school. They and their kids did better when they moved out. Some admitted they should have done it earlier.

People need to understand it's a matter of culture and to change an existing and entrenched culture that has no motivation to change is like banging your head against the wall for no benefit.

leah233

Fri, Nov 23 2018, 11:25 am

It is unrealistic and unfair to move into a neighborhood and expect those already living there to change.

Are there enough BT families that they can make their own shul and have their own rav in the more yeshivish neighborhood? Or would any existing shul allow them to have their own minyan in their building?

Is there not even one rov in the more yeshivish community who is understanding of the way the BT community feels and willing to give a shiur targeting them and focus more on them making them feel more welcome and with an easier adjustment in the process? Can someone who isn't an official rav take that role?

Can the BT community understand that a very yeshivish community is not going to value a very successful secular career the same way the secular world would so they shouldn't take it as a personal rejection?

amother

cornflower

Fri, Nov 23 2018, 12:28 pm

I think both have to change.

The newcomers have to try and fit into the existing culture. And the existing culture has to look at the new families and be in awe of BT families. They are at a level that is hard for a FFB to attain. The oldtimers have to know that for a BT family they don't have an existing support structure. They can't go to their parents for Shabbat, their parents aren't sending over food after a birth. In some ways they are like an orphan. And as we are told over and over by Hashem, if you don't take care of orphans and those that need it, your korbanos (learning, davening etc) mean nothing.

So, it requires effort and change from both sides.

amother

Mistyrose

Fri, Nov 23 2018, 12:44 pm

What is your relationship with this family? Are they asking you for advice?

Honestly, your post sounds a little infantilizing. They're adults with professions. They will figure things out. Either to move, to adjust their expectations or carve out space for themselves. Your role is simply to be a good friend, not to manage their life for them.

If they're seeking advice, tell them, "Theres this wonderful site for frum women that may have some good advice for you." Unless you think they need you to filter advice for them first?

amother

Forestgreen

Fri, Nov 23 2018, 1:24 pm

They're seeking advice from my husband and me because we've made an effort to reach out to these families and have them over. We're older than these families so they're looking to us for advice. I posted here because my husband and I disagree about the best solution to these families' problems. I feel it's smarter to move to another community that's a better fit. I was curious what other people's experiences have been in this situation.

These are families who, for various reasons, aren't the proactive type who will figure out this problem on their own. OOT communities with cheap housing lately have had a lot of people who don't have things together move there, hoping things will be better. Some of them thrive. Some of them don't, though, and are really struggling, and becoming bitter. I'm a sounding board for the bitter ones.

amother

Mistyrose

Fri, Nov 23 2018, 1:45 pm

amother wrote:

Do they have an opinion? Or are they waiting for you and your husband to come to an agreement about what's best for them?

I think its wonderful that you're reaching out and being a friend to them. But they're adults who will figure things out. What do you mean "dont have things together"? You wrote in the OP that they're educated and have careers.

If they're bitter it's not your fault or the community's fault. Adults sometimes make mistakes and move to an area that isnt the perfect fit. Sometimes our job isnt a perfect fit. Sometimes our family isnt a perfect fit! It's part of life.

I know a couple who moved a few years ago to our charming OOT affordable community. At first they raved about it. Then they decided people didnt roll out the red carpet enough for them and posted a Facebook rant about how awful the community is and they will never associate with this community again. Maybe some of their complaints have validity but when you start with the bashing and lashing out... nobody is listening.

amother

Forestgreen

Fri, Nov 23 2018, 2:12 pm

No need for sarcasm. Just because people have good job situations doesn't mean they have everything together in their lives. There are people in very good professional jobs who have a lot of stuff going on, psychologically. Personality issues and family issues and stuff like that. Like me! Like all of us. People seek advice and mentorship from people they feel safe talking to. My husband and I have positions in the community where they turn to us. It's a common BT syndrome, to think you'll be part of this amazing utopian frum community, and when you realize it's not what you thought it would be, it's very difficult. Some families are more resilient and able to deal with it proactively and rationally. Others have more difficulty. Sometimes there's a lot of hand-holding involved, depending on what the people need.

I have friends whose parents felt like outsiders in the community, and their kids really struggled. Most of their siblings went off. I think they would have been better off somewhere less yeshivish.

ProudMommie

Fri, Nov 23 2018, 2:12 pm

I am just going to say it.. Out of town, in town.... there is a Hshem in the world, work on your relationship with Him and your family first, try to be a good person in the community but stay out of these crazy politics.. of who is who or rather who is frummer, better, more choshuve... etc.. it will not lead to anything good. Teach your children to love HKBH and be truthful with themselves and Hshem, and of course others. And don't blah blah blah so much. Really, it works. I have changed a lot too BH and I dont get upset anymore. If you don't like me or accept me, it is really ok. You have a right. I will live and I have taught my children to accept it. Good jews love each other because they know the truth and the rest.. well, they are still growing so don't hate them or be angry at them... Just surround yourselves with people whose primary purpose in this world is to do Hshem's will not win popularity contests. Good people will understand you and support you. Try to see other Jews as your brothers and sisters and leave those that are mean alone. We don't know who is who these days anyway. We as Baaley teshuva.. whatever that even means-- have to realize that there are cults, or nicely put "clicks" within the jewish community and that is how it is. True yidden will love you and accept you because you feel each other. You don't need to be accepted by the community. In EY there are the same people too and they want you to feel that you are second class because they were born frum. It used to hurt me so much until I understood that they do not determine someone's worth... It is nonsense. They have not even an iota of understanding what it takes to turn your whole life around in order to serve Hshem and follow the guidelines of the Torah... etc. I wish them to become baaley teshuva in the true meaning of the word.. as we all should become. Good Shabbos to everyone.

P.S. In my experience I have found that baaley teshuva are looking for a more ruchani experience and the ahavas yisroel they read about in books. They will find snippets of it everywhere. More of it in EY.. but the community you describe.. well, if they don't have thick skin, moving could be a very good idea.

amother

Mistyrose

Fri, Nov 23 2018, 3:28 pm

amother wrote:

I just wonder why you think they're sooooo dysfunctional that they cant even post on imamother about this problem themselves and need you to do it for them.

TwinsMommy

Fri, Nov 23 2018, 4:18 pm

it totally feels like you're talking about my neighborhood! For many reasons we LOVE it here but yeah, we're BT and in our city there isn't a lot in between "Modern" and "Yeshivish". I consider us "Modern" but we DEFINITELY wouldn't fit into the "Modern" neighborhood so we're just the most left wingy folks in our neighborhood. For the most part we have our group of friends and are fine... but I caution well meaning families such as yourselves--- please don't look at your friends as a project. We have people who invite us for Shabbos pretty much SO THAT they can get us to see the light---- my husband wears colored shirts sometimes, he works in a non frum environment, etc..... we're more of a project to them than FRIENDS. Please just be FRIENDS with your friends--- give them advice when they ask, but to come to imamother to ask how best to help them--- it feels a little invasive and I'm starting to wonder if you ARE in our neighborhood and if you're talking about us. Certainly not, because we are most definitely not looking for STATUS regardless of our secular educations and our jobs are frankly not that great--- but in many ways this speaks to us. People of all types can live together in a community and be friends without well meaning friends trying to convince the BT's or the out of the box folks or the families with special needs kids or what have you to move elsewhere. (our friends I mentioned above are trying to convince us to move to Lakewood because we have kids with special needs---- that's the last place that would work for us!).

amother

Mistyrose

Sat, Nov 24 2018, 7:10 pm

TwinsMommy wrote:

we are most definitely not looking for STATUS regardless of our secular educations and our jobs are frankly not that great--- but in many ways this speaks to us. People of all types can live together in a community and be friends without well meaning friends trying to convince the BT's or the out of the box folks or the families with special needs kids or what have you to move elsewhere. (our friends I mentioned above are trying to convince us to move to Lakewood because we have kids with special needs---- that's the last place that would work for us!).

You know, I wonder whether "status" in this context merely means being addressed as adult human beings rather than condescended to as small children.

amother

Maroon

Sat, Nov 24 2018, 7:44 pm

If, as you say, it's realistic for them to form a social group of like-minded families, that seems optimal to me.

For the future, I think the community needs to be careful in how it markets itself and what sort of expectations it sets. It doesn't sound like there is much friendship among families, so perhaps this community should not pitch friendliness as a distinguishing characteristic. I don't know exactly how these BT families came to your community, but I do know that OOT communities sometimes get a little overenthusiastic in trying to convince prospective families to come. If these families were treated to lots of friendliness and socializing on their visits and lots of exclamations about how amazingly warm the community is, well no wonder they are surprised. It sounds like multiple families got the wrong idea, so maybe something is off in how the community presents and describes itself.

Fox

Sat, Nov 24 2018, 8:13 pm

I think there are two issues at play here.

The first problem is that we need to discourage the mentality that finding the "perfect" community or the "perfect" school for your kids will somehow lead to a fulfilling, conflict-free life. If only!

There is no "perfect" community out there that will meet all of your needs and perfectly fit your hashkafas and philosophies. This is true whether you're barely Conservadox or a member of a Rebbishe family descended from the Baal Shem Tov

Of course, there are times when the mismatch is so great that a move is in order, but it should be done with the full understanding that you are simply exchanging one set of problems for a set that you will find easier to navigate and handle. We've all known families who bounce from one community to another, always certain that happiness, acceptance, and validation is over the next hill.

The second part pertains to what Cornflower Amother said:

amother wrote:

ITA. The problem is not bad middos; the problem is bad habits. Everyone needs a lot of reminders.

The BTs come from backgrounds in which people self-segregate based on education, income, and general values. They have to be gently and repeatedly reminded that people are part of our community simply because they are Jews. Not because they hold similar opinions to us or behave in similar ways. That can be a jarring realization, practically speaking.

The FFBs need equally frequent reminders that Hashem gave the BTs the exposure He gave them for a reason, and their capacity to contribute to the community shouldn't be overlooked. In some cases, that might mean the use of literal talents or skills, but in many cases, it might simply mean their ability to see through and call out certain types of narishkeit that exist in the frum veldt.

There will be resistance on both sides. Both sides will be hearing something they'd rather not. But that's the value of repetition. Like so many problems in life, it boils down to lather, rinse, repeat.