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Challenge: Argue opposing viewpoint 2018
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 26 2018, 10:34 pm
We did something similar about eight years ago (see here). Let's try it again.

Choose any controversial topic and argue the opposite of the position that you normally hold. The rules are:

1. You have to be sincere in your argument. No sarcasm, faking it, etc. This is not a game for everyone. If you cannot be sincere, don't post in this thread.

2. You can't just parrot what others say. You must come up with your own formulation, a way of thinking that makes sense to you.

3. Extra Credit: Think of one typical response to your argument ( say that you would normally make) and counter-argue it.

PS If this is difficult for you, start off by explaining what you agree with from what you understand the other side's position to be and go from there.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 26 2018, 10:41 pm
I'll go first.

It is important to have a system of vetting people who want enter the country. Because otherwise people can take advantage of our bounty and ultimately we will not be able to be generous anymore, even to those who already live here.

Even if people claim that they are being persecuted, it is critical for us to have an organized and comprehensive system to evaluate these claims and set priorities. It is unlikely that we can extend our kindness to everyone who wants to enter and improve their lives and their children's lives so we will - inevitably - have to reject the vast majority of those who try to enter.
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amother
Indigo


 

Post Mon, Nov 26 2018, 10:49 pm
Donald Trump is the best thing that happened to this country in a long time. The economy is booming, he moved the American embassy in Israel to Jerusalem, he publicly supports Israel in ways the U.S. has not for a long time, he wants to prevent Muslims from entering this country, he is tough on countries who have been taking advantage of us economically for a long time (e.g. China). He's not afraid to speak his mind and does not subscribe to political correctness. He has finally stood up to the liberal rampage that has run over this country.

OR

Donald Trump is the worst thing that has happened in this country in a long time. He is a perverted, promiscuous man who speaks deplorably about women and takes advantage of his position to manipulate women into doing his bidding. He has no filter and acts like a toddler when someone says something he doesn't like. He antagonizes friends and enemies alike. Even his own party can't stand him, and they repeatedly have to work on damage control when he says or does rash things. The federal courts are busy all day and night from his executive orders, because they are rash and racist. He is bigoted.

I don't fully believe either of these positions, but I see where people are coming from when they say either side.


Last edited by amother on Thu, Jul 11 2019, 11:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Indigo


 

Post Mon, Nov 26 2018, 10:55 pm
Anti-vaxxers are not all bad. While some of them are uninformed or easily swayed by hyperbole, the majority have had bad experiences that, at the very least, seem to have a certain correlation with vaccines. Many of them have had children who experienced severe side effects immediately following vaccination. An overwhelming majority do not believe the Wakefield autism research, which they know was falsified. There is so much that the medical community does not know, and these people are making the choice not to introduce potential toxins to the body.

Last edited by amother on Thu, Jul 11 2019, 11:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 26 2018, 10:59 pm
amother wrote:
Anti-vaxxers are not all bad. While some of them are uninformed or easily swayed by hyperbole, the majority have had bad experiences that, at the very least, seem to have a certain correlation with vaccines. Many of them have had children who experienced severe side effects immediately following vaccination. An overwhelming majority do not believe the Wakefield autism research, which they know was falsified. There is so much that the medical community does not know, and these people are making the choice not to introduce potential toxins to the body.


nice job!
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Cheiny




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 26 2018, 11:05 pm
marina wrote:
I'll go first.

It is important to have a system of vetting people who want enter the country. Because otherwise people can take advantage of our bounty and ultimately we will not be able to be generous anymore, even to those who already live here.

Even if people claim that they are being persecuted, it is critical for us to have an organized and comprehensive system to evaluate these claims and set priorities. It is unlikely that we can extend our kindness to everyone who wants to enter and improve their lives and their children's lives so we will - inevitably - have to reject the vast majority of those who try to enter.


Wow, finally you’ve got it! Applause
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amother
Pewter


 

Post Mon, Nov 26 2018, 11:11 pm
Someone who comes unhinged with access to a gun can do a lot more damage than someone without one, even if he has access to other weapons. It is often impossible to know who these people will be, especially if it happens after they obtained a gun legally. Yes, there are existing laws to deal with this, but the lack of proper use and enforcement may indicate a need for some change. I really do believe that a good guy with a gun stops a bad guy with a gun. And I don't believe guns should be taken from many people with nothing problematic about them in order to keep them from the few that are problematic, especially since that reduces those good guys with guns. But with the extant of potential damage, I can see why someone would come out on the other side of that cheshbon.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 26 2018, 11:18 pm
Cheiny wrote:
Wow, finally you’ve got it! Applause


You're missing the point of this thread.
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Ravenclaw




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 26 2018, 11:26 pm
Marina this is an amazing idea. Love it.

Banning people from certain countries that are well known for their high rates of terrorism is not racist or cruel—it is using statistics to best serve our country. While we are well aware that most people coming in from these predominantly Muslim countries are not a danger to our citizens, there is a much higher probablility that some terrorists may slip through. After all, most of these countries idolize terror.
If this policy can save even one terror attack from happening on American soil, it will have been worth it.
We are not xenophobic, we are simply being cautious and using the information available to our advantage.
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Ravenclaw




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 26 2018, 11:37 pm
Voting specifically for minorities strengthens the country, as no matter how much we would like to believe that political leaders have all of their constituents in mind, human nature will skew their view into favoring white males over minorities. It is not reverse discrimination to prefer a intersectional candidate over a white male, because we have not yet won the war on discrimination. As long as prejudice exists, and statistics show certain minorities to be at a disadvantage, you cannot claim to be the victim of discrimination if you are a white male. You should be grateful for your opportunities that society has given you, and recognize that it is time for minorities to be voted into office so that we can rest assured that all citizens are represented.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 26 2018, 11:55 pm
Ravenclaw wrote:
Marina this is an amazing idea. Love it.

Banning people from certain countries that are well known for their high rates of terrorism is not racist or cruel—it is using statistics to best serve our country. While we are well aware that most people coming in from these predominantly Muslim countries are not a danger to our citizens, there is a much higher probablility that some terrorists may slip through. After all, most of these countries idolize terror.
If this policy can save even one terror attack from happening on American soil, it will have been worth it.
We are not xenophobic, we are simply being cautious and using the information available to our advantage.


Thanks- you're doing great!
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ectomorph




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 26 2018, 11:58 pm
Harry potter is not especially well written or plotted. Its succes is a mystery.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 27 2018, 8:02 am
This is doing more for bipartisanship than anything I've seen in years!
Thumbs Up
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iyar




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 27 2018, 8:52 am
Cheiny wrote:
Wow, finally you’ve got it! Applause


No no. What you were supposed to do is explain to Marina why you're in favor of open borders. Tell us why you'd open the gate and welcome the whole caravan in and put them up at your house.
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sushilover




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 27 2018, 9:58 am
Abortion is a positive good for society. Burdening women with children they cannot afford or do not want is cruel and inhumane.
There is also the legitimate fear that if abortions were restricted in any way, it could negatively impact women's health and access to birth control.



(I edited because I wrote a paragraph explaining that a fetus can't be considered a person until it is viable and healthy. I removed it because it breaks one of the rules of the thread)


Last edited by sushilover on Tue, Nov 27 2018, 10:05 am; edited 2 times in total
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 27 2018, 10:01 am
I tried.

I can’t.
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gingertop




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 27 2018, 10:16 am
I'll try:

Yeshivas should not be forced by the state to establish a basic curriculum. In the interest of freedom of religion, government organizations should stay out of the private religious choices that parents make for their children.
Parents can choose to send their children to other schools. They are making a choice to send to private schools where the main goal is the pursuit of Torah knowledge. Being forced to teach other subjects is an infringement of the parents' best interests.
People can supplement their learning by educating themselves.
Students who graduate without basic language arts and mathematical standards can still be successful within their communities as teachers in the schools they graduated from. They can be entrepreneurs and they can have high paying blue collar jobs. Alternatively, they can catch up by taking specifically designed courses that will bring them up to level.
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fmt4




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 27 2018, 10:19 am
iyar wrote:
No no. What you were supposed to do is explain to Marina why you're in favor of open borders. Tell us why you'd open the gate and welcome the whole caravan in and put them up at your house.


A certain amount of open mindedness and intelligence is required to do this challenge. Not everyone has it.
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fmt4




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 27 2018, 10:22 am
Racial profiling of people who appear to be Muslim and or of middle eastern descent may not be the ideal, but in today’s world it is necessary. As much as we may want to consider people as individuals, in order to protect the majority, we need to at times discriminate against a group for safety reasons. Many terrorist incidents have been prevented because of profiling. Muslims should understand that it isn’t personal, but the actions of so many of them have required the government to profile them. Muslims should also work to educate their brethren and help prevent terrorist incidents that lead to this kind of profiling.
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sushilover




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 27 2018, 10:45 am
Ok, this one is really hard:

Neturei Karta is right.

From a religious perspective, the Torah clearly states that we may not use force to establish a Jewish state in Israel before Moshiach comes. This was the view of virtually every leading Halachic authority until Rav Kook.
They can also be commended for refusing to take any aid or participate in elections because they ideologically oppose the establishment of the state altogether. This cannot be said for most Americans who are ideologically opposed to the establishment of the US.
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