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Satmar Rabbi Aaron teitelbaum declares war on DOE
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amother
Ecru


 

Post Tue, Dec 04 2018, 11:30 pm
amother wrote:
Are you directing the question to me?
We only speak English at home. My son actually learned the yiddish language from cheder. This is not the case for many others.


I was responding to the fact that you said that Slategray's children must be speaking English at home as opposed to chassidim. So it's great that you do. My question is, why aren't the other amothers on here doing that too?
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Ravenclaw




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 04 2018, 11:34 pm
crust wrote:


The truth is that its hard to discuss this if we see different realities.
You see business owners. I see their employees.



Ah, back to Marxism. Tongue Out But seriously, crust is right.
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amother
Puce


 

Post Tue, Dec 04 2018, 11:56 pm
amother wrote:


Can you find me a Jewish worker that he is willing to pay $3000 a week to help him manage the business?


$3000 a week? Where do I sign up?

Seriously though, with so many men desperate for high paying jobs, this doesn't add up. Unless, there's a specific reason no one wants, or can do, this particular job.
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hannabanana




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 05 2018, 12:16 am
Amother wheat

Finally a sane post!
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naturalmom5




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 05 2018, 12:44 am
amother wrote:
do you realize that my husband can hardly find a Jewish worker. This, in Brooklyn where
tens of thousands orthodox Jewish men live?
Most of the chasidish men he deals with are his hundreds of vendors, insurance man, his commercial machine suppliers who oversee their non-Jewish repair men, plumbers , electrician and contractor.

Can you find me a Jewish worker that he is willing to pay $3000 a week to help him manage the business?


Please PM the requirements and experience needed . I have 5 people in mind
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hannabanana




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 05 2018, 12:47 am
Tweek

You remind me of the story rumored to have happened in the early 1900 about a man who interviewed for a janitorial position. Since he was illiterate, he couldn’t sign his name and thus, didn’t get the job. He went on to buy and sell on the corner, his business expanding so much he was now a millionaire. At an important business meeting, he was asked to sign his name once again and of course, he couldn’t, so they asked him, look at you at what you’ve become, and you can’t even write ur name, imagine if you would have these skills? If you’d be able to read and write? What greater heights you could have reached? Imaging what you could have become! Yup, he replied, A janitor!
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amother
Slategray


 

Post Wed, Dec 05 2018, 12:48 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
I just re-read your post, sorry that I missed this the first time around.

If your children know basic math and science, and can read and write English, they are way ahead of the children being discussed on this thread. I'm glad your children learned the basics by osmosis; most children don't, not even those from English-speaking homes. Most children do need to be formally taught. Either your children are really very exceptionally bright or there's something missing in your story ...

And many children are not exposed to English at all.

I didn't get involved in this thread to say that Satmar yungerleit are at an advantage in the workforce! Smile I know my kids are at a significant advantage there.

I posted on this thread originally to point out that my family, who is NOT at high risk of being unemployable, will be negatively affected by any legislation regarding what must be taught in schools. Even if it may help some Chassidishe communities, which is debatable considering that this will become a holy war, I am part of the fallout.

As far as osmosis, honestly, how can you go through Chumash Bereishis without learning basic math? How can you learn Hilchos Shabbos without basic science? Foundational math logic and basic scientific principles are pretty much required for any Torah study. The gaps they can fill in later as necessary. (You and I might differ in the definition of "basic" or "osmosis" in this context.)

Of course I think my kids are exceptionally bright Wink but from what I see, I would also expect that any of their classmates, whether or not they are supplementing Limudei Chol outside of school (some do), would have very little trouble preparing for and obtaining a GED or attending college if they chose to.
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naturalmom5




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 05 2018, 12:55 am
amother wrote:
It's a shita, called Chinuch Al Taharas Hakodesh. Secular wisdom is a type of tumah that is refined into kedusha by being used for kedusha. I.e. using math to understand the timeline of the Mabul, using science to understand how Kiddush Hachodesh works, using English to explain a Torah concept to a less-observant friend. When not [yet] used for these purposes, they remain for the time being as tumah in the brain of the child.

Therefore I do not introduce any secular subjects as standalone. Any of those "pareve tumah" subjects are addressed only as they come up in Limudei Kodesh, which is plenty - they know basic math and science, and can read and write English.

As I explained previously, I have nothing against my children having a modicum of secular education as necessary. However, at this age, formal study is not necessary.

Think of it as an overdose of calories, resulting in the excess being stored as fat that needs to later be converted back to energy. I'd rather give the "calories" they need when they need them.

I will also disagree that reading and writing takes that long. For a reasonably intelligent person, learning a new alphabet and phonics structures is not overwhelming. True, they will make errors, but most people do, despite their education. If they can't speak the language at all, it will obviously be a much greater effort.


Did you make this up on your own... If not , I would love to hear a mainstream poisuk behind this.

It goes against the Rambam, Ran, Rasba, Ramban, Chasam Sofer.

Also, are you trying to say your sons are learning Torah every waking moment.. Otherwise, I can't comprehend how running in a park, acting vild in a shul or playing kugelach or other games is less bitul Torah than learning about plants and clorophyll..
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chestnut




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 05 2018, 12:59 am
amother wrote:
do you realize that my husband can hardly find a Jewish worker. This, in Brooklyn where
tens of thousands orthodox Jewish men live?
Most of the chasidish men he deals with are his hundreds of vendors, insurance man, his commercial machine suppliers who oversee their non-Jewish repair men, plumbers , electrician and contractor.

Can you find me a Jewish worker that he is willing to pay $3000 a week to help him manage the business?


And this Jewish worker who's supposed to manage the business for $12K/$144K a year don't have to know math or speak/write/read English?
Heck, "I" will quit my job for this money and no other requirement besides being Jewish!! Where do I report to tomorrow morning?
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amother
Slategray


 

Post Wed, Dec 05 2018, 1:03 am
naturalmom5 wrote:
Did you make this up on your own... If not , I would love to hear a mainstream poisuk behind this.

It goes against the Rambam, Ran, Rasba, Ramban, Chasam Sofer.

Also, are you trying to say your sons are learning Torah every waking moment.. Otherwise, I can't comprehend how running in a park, acting vild in a shul or playing kugelach or other games is less bitul Torah than learning about plants and clorophyll..

Please reread what I wrote. This isn't about bittul Torah, and applies equally to girls.

Please also clarify how it goes against the Rambam, for starters. I don't remember seeing anywhere in the Mishna Torah a father's obligation to teach a child plant science. I do recall seeing about a parnasa, but usually that's not relevant to a 10-year-old.
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amother
Orchid


 

Post Wed, Dec 05 2018, 1:13 am
amother wrote:
I don't believe that people don't have options.
At the age of 30, when I took stock of the situation, and didn't like where I was at, I took control of my life. Especially thinking of my kids and wanting something better for them. Yes, it was hard in regards to my family and friends, but I owe it to my kids, more than to my siblings and friends.
I took my kids out of Satmar, moved away from Williamsburg and rebuilt somewhere else (am still in the process).
It's not unheard of to switch a 10 or 12 year old. They're still young enough to adapt.
We are still Chassidish, we are very erlich
and frum, and we are serving Hashem from a different, happier place. Maybe not Satmar Williamsburg style, but definitely Torah style.
And my family members have come to accept my choices and respect me, and so have some of my friends. And for those that haven't, that's fine too. I've made new ones, who help me grow and who matter


You can only escape the way you did if your dh is on board.
The sad and stifling truth is that most people arent self aware and mature enough at 18 to realize they want a different path. By the time they decide their community is too restrictive, they are married, with a child or more.
The spouse is usually either happy with his lifestyle or unwilling to pay the price of making changes.
And there you have the meaning of the word stuck.
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naturalmom5




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 05 2018, 1:16 am
amother wrote:
Please reread what I wrote. This isn't about bittul Torah, and applies equally to girls.

Please also clarify how it goes against the Rambam, for starters. I don't remember seeing anywhere in the Mishna Torah a father's obligation to teach a child plant science. I do recall seeing about a parnasa, but usually that's not relevant to a 10-year-old.


For Girls: Boys come to Ahavas Hashem thru limud ha Torah.. Girls through looking and marvelling at the bria , nifloas ha bora


For Boys : Gam. Bechoros.. someone came into bais medrash and asked amora gestation of snake . He didn't know, he was embarrassed for 3 months

B Basra.. Rabba B B Chama asked all the arab sea farers about different types of moss

Shabbos.. Amoraaim are describing different types of silk..

Unless your sons are on the madrega of 'sod Hashem l yereav' I fail to understand your 'shita'
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NovelConcept




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 05 2018, 1:20 am
tweek wrote:
There is no question that to run any of those businesses, one needs to know basic math, reading comprehension, and writing. I am tired of those who point to the few illiterate millionaires who hired enough people to overcome their deficits. They still had deficits and could have been better off if they hadn't.


I consider myself rather intelligent and have had educational opportunities my husband has not, and yet, my husband's ability to calculate and his analytical skills, as well as his understanding of laws and his interpersonal skills, just leave me standing like a wallflower, watching him gracefully navigate the world -- even when it comes to the many times he must interact with non-Jews.

He is not alone. Most of the chasidim in any type of business I've come across are experts in their fields, even the simple workers.

Of course, there are some men who just can't hold a job, but I believe that has to do with personality and drive more than education.

The quality of education is not really the issue at hand. I believe the quality of chadishe education (in most schools/yeshivos) is beyond that of government schools because it addresses the whole child, not just his brain.

Frum, specifically chadishe (as that is pertinent to our discussion and is the community I know), schools are concerned with children's emotional, spiritual, intellectual and physical health. (Not speaking in terms of Phys. ED... We may have a problem there! Wink I'm talking in terms of: Is the child clothed properly? Does she/he come to school with ripped/dirty clothing, messy hair, body odor on a daily basis? Is the child happy? Does the child seem abnormally hungry?)
If anything, I would suggest that chasidishe schools can become even TOO enmeshed in children'ts development. But they all mean well.

So I believe the quality of education is not the issue which is being examined; it is the TYPE of education.

In terms of human development, how important is English? Answer: It is of little import. LANGUAGE is the important part. The ability to communicate.
Are chasidishe schools turning out children who can communicate with their peers in a mature and appropriate manner? Yes. I believe so.

We can continue to evaluate the issues in this manner, and I believe that, on a base level, all of the requirements for building healthy, well-educated individuals are being met. The question is though, do you care about that?
Or do you just care about your pre-conceived notions of what is considered a "good" education?
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naturalmom5




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 05 2018, 1:23 am
Also worth discussing once we are on this topic.. Although probably should be a spin off...


Its worth looking into a few of the views that have emerged during the course of the twentieth century. As I noted earlier, it is beyond the scope of this Chabura to include every view that has been expressed, However, I feel that it would be irresponsible to omit the views of those who live or lived closer to our time, a time when a secular education is often a natural part of one's life, and the issue is often how far one may take that education and what restrictions one should impose on oneself.

Rav Elchanan Wasserman (Kovetz Shiurim 2:47) addresses many aspects of our issue. He begins by writing that if involvement in outside studies will lead one to reading heresy, then that reading is forbidden based on the verses of "And you shall not stray after your heart" and "Do not turn to the idols." Beyond that level, there is the even more severe level of reading works that are not merely heretical, but actually deny several principles of faith (much modern-day Biblical scholarship falls into this category). This level is certainly forbidden, as it presents the danger that one will, God forbid, see reason in the arguments contained in them and begin to neglect the words of the Sages in favor of these works. Specifically with regard to the issue of attending secular universities to study these subjects, Rav Wasserman says that this is a problem due to the potential of establishing friendly ties with non-Jews, a violation of the verse "Lest you be lured into their ways." Rav Wasserman is lenient if studying other subjects is necessary in order for one to make a living, although he forbids the learning of heretical material in all cases, including for the purposes of teaching it as just another subject. Even if one merely wants to dabble in these subjects there is still a problem of bittul Torah, and certainly no one should make such studies a permanent fixture in their lives, and even when dabbling one should always realize that Torah is the ultimate purpose and goal of all knowledge. Finally, he states that even though there is much debate regarding philosophy specifically, only those who are fully steeped in Torah should even consider approaching such subjects.

A somewhat similar approach is taken by Rav Avraham Yitzchak Block, the Av Beit Din of Telz. However, Rav Block's approach is to spell out under what conditions one may be permitted to learn such subjects. First and foremost, he states that one must always realize that Torah is the primary form of knowledge. He then forbids philosophy based on a statement in Avodah Zara 17a. He concedes that there are individuals who can learn such things, but they must meet the following requirements: they must have filled their stomachs with meat and wine, they may only study it in a dabbling manner, and they must always be thinking while engaged in these studies that Torah is the main goal. He then deals with the problem that many studies that contain much truth also contain that which is heretical. For example, while much of what one studies in a biology class is factual and vital knowledge, may one study biology at all if it means learning about Darwin's theories, ideas which severely minimize, if not eliminate, the role of Hashem in creation? Rav Block decides against throwing out the baby with the bath water, and states that one must approach these subjects aware of the dangers involved and should be careful in distinguishing between that which is good and that which is bad. If it is possible to obtain books on these topics written by God-fearing individuals, then one should certainly try to do so. As far as schoolchildren go, they should first be given a solid foundation in Torah, and when learning secular studies they should be taught by a teacher who is God-fearing and will be able to steer them clear of any dangers to their faith posed by the material. Furthermore, such subjects should not be made obligatory for children, as our obligation is to study Torah. He concludes by mentioning subjects such as mathematics and geometry. With regard to these disciplines he claims that they are not inherently forbidden, yet studying them does take time away from Torah and thus results in an act of bittul Torah. Thus, he states, they should only be studied within certain boundaries, I.e. by girls, who have no obligation to learn Torah (I suppose we will have to make this a future Chabura topic), by those who for some reason need to learn such things, and for professional purposes.

A different attitude is taken by Rav Aharon Lichtenstein ("A Consideration of General Studies from a Torah Point of View"). Rav Lichtenstein begins his article by stressing the idea that our goal should be to live a Torah life and that the main method of doing so in deep involvement in the learning of Torah. He discusses how Torah brings one closer to Hashem and gives an insight into His revealed will, as well as its ability to effect one's total spiritual being. Shifting his focus to general studies, Rav Lichtenstein deals briefly with the need to study them for vocational purposes. His main focus is fitting them into a Torah way of life on a much deeper level. First, he notes that there are many areas of knowledge that are useful in the study of Torah ("agronomy in Zeraim, physiology in Niddah, chemistry in Chametz U'Matzah..."), and thus claims that such subjects are either Torah themselves are at least hechsherei Talmud Torah - actions needed as a preparatory stage to performing the mitzvah of learning Torah. Further, Rav Lichtenstein attributes to many secular works the ability to aid one in one's own personal spiritual development, stating "Who can fail to be inspired by ...the passionate fervor of Augustine or the visionary grandeur of Milton?...We have our own genius, and we have bent it to the noblest of pursuits, the development of Torah. But we cannot be expected to do everything." Rav Lichtenstein goes on to deal with some of the major pitfalls involved in his views, namely the fact that dangers still do exist arising from coming into contact with many secular thinkers and writers. His solution stems from the ideal of having one's stomach full with meat and wine, but seems to apply more generally. He writes that our approach to any subject outside of Torah must be through the perspective of Torah. He dismisses the notion of an objective approach to such studies and stresses the need to learn them using the spirit of the Torah as our critical guide. He concludes with two points. First, the idea that our commitment to Torah will ultimately be the key to our ability to venture outside of it. Second, the notion that the secular world exists for us to sanctify it. We are allowed to explore it and learn about it, but only for the purpose of fitting into our overall world view as determined by the Torah.

Finally, I want to conclude with a statement of Rambam, cited by Rav Ovadiah Yoseif in Yechaveh Da'at 3:75. It is well known that Rambam, in addition to being a doctor, was well-versed in many areas of secular knowledge (perhaps most notably Greek philosophy). However, in describing himself in a letter he wrote that "all that he (Rambam) has studied in other areas of knowledge such as philosophy and medicine and the like has only been to serve Torah, so as to show the nations and the nobles her beauty for she is indeed beautiful."
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NovelConcept




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 05 2018, 1:31 am
naturalmom5 wrote:
Also worth discussing once we are on this topic.. Although probably should be a spin off...


Did you actually just sit and type that all out? I'll admit to not having read every word, but I have a respect for the fact that you have looked so deeply into this that you are able to bring points to prove your position so easily. Kudos to that. Even if I may not agree with your opinion in gantzen.
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amother
White


 

Post Wed, Dec 05 2018, 1:38 am
amother wrote:
Since this is referendum in Satmar... to all of the professionals whose husbands went to high school and got a great secular education (this includes me and my spouse)... Don’t we all wish our communities were as rich, well versed in business and give as much charity as the Satmar community?


Kiryas Yoel is consistently ranked among the poorest towns in America. The tzedaka in Satmar goes from the few rich people to the many poor. A poor community with a few gvirim is not rich or healthy.
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amother
Orchid


 

Post Wed, Dec 05 2018, 1:44 am
NovelConcept wrote:

We can continue to evaluate the issues in this manner, and I believe that, on a base level, all of the requirements for building healthy, well-educated individuals are being met. The question is though, do you care about that?
Or do you just care about your pre-conceived notions of what is considered a "good" education?


We can argue what 'a good education' is until tomorrow.
However, I think one major component would be being able to support one's family without needing to rely on government assistance.

Obviously some chassidic schools are failing miserably there. Kiryas Yoel, I hear, won the dubious title of being the poorest place in the USA.

Obviously these men did not learn enough business skills from gemerah class to enable them to make a viable parnassah.

ETA I see amother white posted similarly just as I was replying.
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NovelConcept




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 05 2018, 1:52 am
amother wrote:
We can argue what 'a good education' is until tomorrow.
However, I think one major component would be being able to support one's family without needing to rely on government assistance.

Obviously some chassidic schools are failing miserably there. Kiryas Yoel, I hear, won the dubious title of being the poorest place in the USA.

Obviously these men did not learn enough business skills from gemerah class to enable them to make a viable parnassah.

ETA I see amother white posted similarly just as I was replying.


Poor is relative. A person having ten kids and living a Jewish life has vastly differently needs than Joe and Sandy with a dog and 2.5 kids.
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amother
Orchid


 

Post Wed, Dec 05 2018, 2:00 am
NovelConcept wrote:
Poor is relative. A person having ten kids and living a Jewish life has vastly differently needs than Joe and Sandy with a dog and 2.5 kids.


Poor is being dependent on the evil government. The same government you want banned from influencing school curriculums.

It is ridiculous and hypocritical to ban governments from curriculums but not from your pocketbook.
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NovelConcept




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 05 2018, 2:24 am
amother wrote:
Poor is being dependent on the evil government. The same government you want banned from influencing school curriculums.

It is ridiculous and hypocritical to ban governments from curriculums but not from your pocketbook.


Actually, Orchid, "you" is not me. I am not Satmar, but am chasidishe. My rebbe did not get up and say what R' Aharon did.

I don't even believe the government is evil. And personally, I take no money from government programs. I live comfortably through hard work and chesed from Hashem's own hand, baruch Hashem. (And my husband is an employee, as I am.)

But I don't believe government should be able to define the exact scope of educational requirements in terms of time and specific content. There is a reason we parents fund our children's educations and do not send them to public schools.
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