Satmar Rabbi Aaron teitelbaum declares war on DOE

amother

White

Wed, Dec 05 2018, 2:37 am

NovelConcept wrote:

Poor is relative. A person having ten kids and living a Jewish life has vastly differently needs than Joe and Sandy with a dog and 2.5 kids.

The US census measures income, not needs (real or socially imposed). The numbers are absolute, per capita.

amother

Orchid

Wed, Dec 05 2018, 2:45 am

NovelConcept wrote:

Actually, Orchid, "you" is not me. I am not Satmar, but am chasidishe. My rebbe did not get up and say what R' Aharon did.

I don't even believe the government is evil. And personally, I take no money from government programs. I live comfortably through hard work and chesed from Hashem's own hand, baruch Hashem. (And my husband is an employee, as I am.)

But I don't believe government should be able to define the exact scope of educational requirements in terms of time and specific content. There is a reason we parents fund our children's educations and do not send them to public schools.

By 'you', I did not mean NovelConcept. It was a general you.
I think a community loses some of their right to tell a government to stay out, if they systematically send their graduates to request assistance from that very goverment.

If the bulk of your graduates, or even half, are asking the government for help putting a roof over their head and food on the table, then yes the government gets a say.

Why would the government (i.e.the taxpayers) not want to remedy a failing education system? Why would they agree to continue to support this?

Now if you tell me that all graduates from these schools refuse all assistance for housing and food, then you have a leg to stand on defending this 'private' education.

It's not private if the taxpayer needs to support the graduates.

amother

Slategray

Wed, Dec 05 2018, 3:47 am

naturalmom5 wrote:

For Girls: Boys come to Ahavas Hashem thru limud ha Torah.. Girls through looking and marvelling at the bria , nifloas ha bora

For Boys : Gam. Bechoros.. someone came into bais medrash and asked amora gestation of snake . He didn't know, he was embarrassed for 3 months

B Basra.. Rabba B B Chama asked all the arab sea farers about different types of moss

Shabbos.. Amoraaim are describing different types of silk..

Unless your sons are on the madrega of 'sod Hashem l yereav' I fail to understand your 'shita'

Source for the quote about Niflaos Haborei? And where does it say that admiring flowers and trees is insufficient to marvel at Hashem's creation? Is one only able to see Gadlus Haborei in flowers if she is able to identify the stamens and the fibonacci petal patterns and explain how photosynthesis works?

As far as the Gemaras, that doesn't contradict what I said at all. If you are learning about how to make bread, you need to learn how wheat grows. Then the knowledge is relevant and necessary and immediately part of your Torah learning.

I also am very curious as to which secular studies curriculum you took part in, which addressed gestation lengths of reptiles, the genus of different varieties of moss, or how to differentiate qualities and types of silk. Those are specialized topics, and you learn them if they are your business, your expertise, or part of your Torah learning. Not the "standard foundation" being discussed here.

ectomorph

Wed, Dec 05 2018, 3:53 am

In Israel, the satmar community doesn't accept government help.

I am sure the same thing would happen in the USA if they felt they were being forced to compromise.

ectomorph

Wed, Dec 05 2018, 3:54 am

Satmar has many wealthy members and the ability to fundraise is unparalleled.

amother

Orchid

Wed, Dec 05 2018, 4:15 am

ectomorph wrote:

Satmar has many wealthy members and the ability to fundraise is unparalleled.

So why is their community unparalleled in their dependence on government support?

imasoftov

Wed, Dec 05 2018, 5:20 am

amother wrote:

if your DH and kids are happy then it does not sound like a cult. And you can get away at times.

I'm not saying it is is a cult, but the above doesn't mean it isn't one.

imasoftov

Wed, Dec 05 2018, 5:21 am

amother wrote:

Boys need an education. It’s not okay that my husband brings home milk close to the expiration date cause he doesn’t know better. It’s not okay that he can’t write out a check.

I do however have an issue that it’s moster that is behind this. I wish we as parents can request these changes.

If parents who send their children to these schools would set up their own organization it would probably get more attention than his, just sayin'

imasoftov

Wed, Dec 05 2018, 5:25 am

MrsDash wrote:

Reading through this thread reminds me of the DEnile river.

"We have constructed pyramids in honor of our escaping" - Jim Morrison

imasoftov

Wed, Dec 05 2018, 5:27 am

amother wrote:

sad that this also somehow became a referendum on satmar

What will happen if the proposition is either approved or rejected by the voters?

imasoftov

Wed, Dec 05 2018, 7:17 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Ravenclaw, my husband took the biology regent and did not learn about evolution. (I didn't take it because my school did not allow it). Many boys did well, some even got a 100. You don't have to teach it (you just have to know how to read the textbook).

For those who object to teaching the subject, how is reading it on one's own better?

DrMom

Wed, Dec 05 2018, 7:29 am

ectomorph wrote:

In Israel, the satmar community doesn't accept government help.

I am sure the same thing would happen in the USA if they felt they were being forced to compromise.

Don't people have a legal obligation to provide minimum education for their children, even if they do not accept government funds?

If live in the US and I decide to homeschool my kids, don't I have to prove that I am meeting some minimal curriculum standards?

As far as I know, I could not just start a "school" where our curriculum consists solely of meditating for 6 hours/day, or picking up rocks, or hopping on on foot -- and expect the govt to be okay with that.

naturalmom5

Wed, Dec 05 2018, 7:46 am

"Unless your sons are on the madrega of 'sod Hashem l yereav' I fail to understand your '*bleep*a' "

OT.. Mods you need to adjust your censor..

I was trying to say Hebrew word "sheeta". Get your mind out of gutter lol..

tweek

Wed, Dec 05 2018, 7:58 am

hannabanana wrote:

Tweek

You remind me of the story rumored to have happened in the early 1900 about a man who interviewed for a janitorial position. Since he was illiterate, he couldn’t sign his name and thus, didn’t get the job. He went on to buy and sell on the corner, his business expanding so much he was now a millionaire. At an important business meeting, he was asked to sign his name once again and of course, he couldn’t, so they asked him, look at you at what you’ve become, and you can’t even write ur name, imagine if you would have these skills? If you’d be able to read and write? What greater heights you could have reached? Imaging what you could have become! Yup, he replied, A janitor!

Good story but I don't think we should be basing our education policies on a rumored story that might have happened to one individual in a different time and place. Glad it worked out for that non janitor.

tweek

Wed, Dec 05 2018, 8:09 am

NovelConcept wrote:

I consider myself rather intelligent and have had educational opportunities my husband has not, and yet, my husband's ability to calculate and his analytical skills, as well as his understanding of laws and his interpersonal skills, just leave me standing like a wallflower, watching him gracefully navigate the world -- even when it comes to the many times he must interact with non-Jews.

He is not alone. Most of the chasidim in any type of business I've come across are experts in their fields, even the simple workers.

Of course, there are some men who just can't hold a job, but I believe that has to do with personality and drive more than education.

The quality of education is not really the issue at hand. I believe the quality of chadishe education (in most schools/yeshivos) is beyond that of government schools because it addresses the whole child, not just his brain.

Frum, specifically chadishe (as that is pertinent to our discussion and is the community I know), schools are concerned with children's emotional, spiritual, intellectual and physical health. (Not speaking in terms of Phys. ED... We may have a problem there! Wink

I'm talking in terms of: Is the child clothed properly? Does she/he come to school with ripped/dirty clothing, messy hair, body odor on a daily basis? Is the child happy? Does the child seem abnormally hungry?)
If anything, I would suggest that chasidishe schools can become even TOO enmeshed in children'ts development. But they all mean well.

So I believe the quality of education is not the issue which is being examined; it is the TYPE of education.

In terms of human development, how important is English? Answer: It is of little import. LANGUAGE is the important part. The ability to communicate.
Are chasidishe schools turning out children who can communicate with their peers in a mature and appropriate manner? Yes. I believe so.

We can continue to evaluate the issues in this manner, and I believe that, on a base level, all of the requirements for building healthy, well-educated individuals are being met. The question is though, do you care about that?
Or do you just care about your pre-conceived notions of what is considered a "good" education?

I agree with much of what you wrote. If you read through my posts specifically, I am not pushing a college level education standard. I am talking about those posters here who are describing grown men who can't function regularly in society. It is an unnecessary handicap.

At the same time, for my kids personally, I also believe that I should bring them to a level where it will be possible for them to explore further educational opportunities if that is a direction they are inclined towards.

NovelConcept

Wed, Dec 05 2018, 10:30 am

What constitutes "further educational opportunities"?

I also am raising my children to capitalize upon their talents, acquired skills, hobbies and dreams.
I pay for extra-curricular activities and invest in products that expand their horizons. And should they desire to take specialized training for a profession, I will gladly consider even sponsoring it.

The question is not in the WHAT. The question is in the HOW.

I will not throw my precious children to the world of spiritual wolves that is secular university, where frat parties, co-mingling and perversion of belief abounds.

There are "kosher" options to achieve higher education, should the need and desire arise.
How many fine, chasidishe accountants, real estate moguls, electricians, marketing specialists and so-on and so-forth have specialized training without having stepped foot into a university? Many.
Maybe my children won't become professors, but I don't really want them to...

tweek

Wed, Dec 05 2018, 10:36 am

Novel concept, then you and I are probably on the same page!
I was arguing against those who are purposely handicapping their children.

NovelConcept

Wed, Dec 05 2018, 10:45 am

tweek wrote:

Novel concept, then you and I are probably on the same page!
I was arguing against those who are purposely handicapping their children.

I, personally, in real life, don't know any of those. As I said, I am chasidishe and know mostly only chasidim, even many Satmarer chasidim.

There are a few very close-minded families, but in general, I think we all want to empower our children to live well-educated, happy lives of opportunity. But kosher opportunity, with our standards in mind.

tweek

Wed, Dec 05 2018, 10:49 am

Glad to hear that! Unfortunately from this thread and others, we see that the other mentality does exist.

amother

Puce

Wed, Dec 05 2018, 11:43 am

NovelConcept wrote:

I hope you won't mind, but I will use your post to demonstrate how people assume that their personal experience is enough evidence to disprove claims.

Firstly, the ability to communicate is dependent on language. And language is dependent on the one spoken in the country. For parnassah sake, being only able to communicate with their peers is wholly insufficient. Being able to communicate with the working world is key. Now, I don't know what skills your husband and known relatives possessed at 18, but in my family, the men at 18 can't communicate well enough to fill out medical forms, marriage licenses and instructional booklets. They splutter and stutter to string together some English words when they're forced to communicate with someone outside of their peers. I doubt anyone can consider that to be 'quality education'. Maybe in your circles this doesn't exist, but in my circles this does. So just like I cannot use my circle to disprove that there are Chassidim who are properly versed in English, you cannot use your circle to disprove that there aren't Chassidim who cannot converse, or function with the use of the English language.

Secondly, your post automatically assumes that all men are created equal and are wired the same way, (same way as your husband is). Everyone learns differently. Some are visual learners, some are auditory, some are conceptual, some are tactical, some learn by inducing, some by deducing etc. So if you take a group of men with no education, and throw them in the deep end, some will have the instincts to float to the top. They are those who learn conceptually, are able to deduce back to the basics. They can easily extrapolate details from it and build all the way around it. But then are those who can only induce, they need to work from the bottom up. They can't easily extrapolate from an environment, they need to have a foundation of which to build upon, and then they flourish from there. Both sets of guys are equally intelligent, its just the way they are wired. Now do they deserve to drown, because their natural instincts are different than the other group?

A good QUALITY EDUCATION imports all different kinds of learning. There is the reading, the auditory lectures, the explanations, the visuals, the diagrams, hands-on-experimentation, etc. It is purposely made to be very inclusive so that all different kinds of minds can learn
& employ the information. The system we have set up is inherently exclusive, where we focus on only one kind of mind and one kind of outcome, and ignore the rest. We cannot expect all men to find their footing without any education, because Hashem created them all differently. Some will, many won't. Its totally unfair to ignore those who won't, just because there are some who will.

And this runs along the same topic of only teaching our boys Gemara. There are boys who have Gemara Kops, analytical heads and thrive in this setting. But what about the boys who have logical, mathematical minds, or those with technical minds, or creative minds? Why are we just pretending that they don't exist, or in many cases, labeling them as weaker kids?

Bottom line - a good quality education is defined as being inclusive of society as possible, and giving the kids the tools how to navigate life both spiritually and physically. Our educational systems fails on both accounts.