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Satmar Rabbi Aaron teitelbaum declares war on DOE
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 8:00 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
I just want to clarify one thing - there is one Chassidus that does not teach English at all and it's not Satmar. Marina has been very vocal about the injustice of that, perhaps this is the yeshiva she is referring to.


I know what group she is referring to and they do have a handful of yeshivas that don't teach secular subjects at any time, even in the lower grades. That same group has a few yeshivas that teaches secular subjects in high school.

The school that she refers to has had students who attended college or who succeeded in business. Many parents who send to that school supplement with after school secular subjects.
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amother




Purple


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 8:22 am
ladYdI wrote:
Do any schools in bp still give English after bar mitzvah? I only know of novominsk that’s not really chasdidush and vyelipol from Flatbush has a nice amount of chassidish boys

Stolin has a full regents program
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DREAMING




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 10:03 am
whewpy wrote:
I have a question to all parents who send to satmar yeshivas and satmar type yeshivas. We all agree the yeshivas are not teaching adequate science, geography etc. Some chassidish yeshivas teach more, some less. However, all yeshivas, including all satmar yeshivas in williamsburg, boro. Park, Monroe, Monsey do teach English classes until bar mitzva, which is eighth grade. All are taught basic reading, writing and math. Its true its at the end of the day and most kids are tired. However, that is usually not the issue.

Have u asked ur child if he has English, math homework...did u go to English pta? Did I make ur child aware that her responsible to study and do well on his English tests? Do u hold him accountable for a good English report card? Have u contacted the English teacher to find out how ur child is doing and what u can do to help him so well?

I am part of this community, I send my children to these mosdos and if ur saying that u want ur kids to learn the basic reading, writing and math, well, they are being taught that. Are u doing ur part, are u showing ur child that this is important to learn?!?

I find it inexcusable for a normal intelligent adult man, who went to satmar/satmar type yeshiva to have to practice c -a -t, with the excuse me never learnt it and yeshiva is at fault...you know why, because they were taught to read and write...they just didn't bother learning because no one showed them they have to!

Again, I am part of this community so no one can tell me these sob stories, how the terrible yeshiva said its forbidden to learn basics...by and large, the kids from families whose parents expect them to learn English, do

Don't mean to be harsh, but all those satmar parents basing satmar, need to look inward and see where the blame really lies


Just because they have teachers doesn’t mean they are taught properly. They are breeding chutzpah not teaching English.
And yes we go to pta and care about English. We have plenty of English books in the house and strongly encourage reading
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amother




Cerulean


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 10:10 am
DREAMING wrote:
Just because they have teachers doesn’t mean they are taught properly. They are breeding chutzpah not teaching English.
And yes we go to pta and care about English. We have plenty of English books in the house and strongly encourage reading

Yes, we care. They are being taught- but how? My boys education is on a higher caliber than satmar and yet it is so poor. Why should my seven year old come home crying about how boring english is? Why dont they put in a tiny bit of effort to make it exciting? And yes, the teacher confirmed that it is boring! We had one teacher teach math by showing one example on the board and then handing the children a huge booklet of examples to do while he did his own thing. I mean, seriously!
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amother




Khaki


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 10:22 am
southernbubby wrote:
I know what group she is referring to and they do have a handful of yeshivas that don't teach secular subjects at any time, even in the lower grades. That same group has a few yeshivas that teaches secular subjects in high school.

The school that she refers to has had students who attended college or who succeeded in business. Many parents who send to that school supplement with after school secular subjects.


Flip that around.

The yeshiva has had students who remained Orthodox and even a few who continued learning after high school.

Why is that good enough?

Why is the model of after-school Jewish studies so disdained, but for secular studies, supplementing after a very long and tiring day is sufficient.
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 10:40 am
amother [ Khaki ] wrote:
Flip that around.

The yeshiva has had students who remained Orthodox and even a few who continued learning after high school.

Why is that good enough?

Why is the model of after-school Jewish studies so disdained, but for secular studies, supplementing after a very long and tiring day is sufficient.


The Rosh Yeshiva there has allowed boys to have a shorter day of learning in order to pursue learning of a trade when it was determined to be in the best interest of the boy.
The secular subjects were taught in what is known as the blast class and the kids enjoy it and really get some skills, even though it's taught late in the day.
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Bruria




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 5:19 pm
I didn't read all the pages, but for those saying that secular education in schools is not necessary because you don't need it to become a business man, I say you need it to become a Doctor, a Lawyer, and many other professions that you can't just decide to " wing it". Some professions require a lot of education and if someone had almost zero secular education growing up, if they decide to catch up is almost impossible. Most chachamim had a profession as well, the kolel ideal is relatively new.
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 6:43 pm
Bruria wrote:
I didn't read all the pages, but for those saying that secular education in schools is not necessary because you don't need it to become a business man, I say you need it to become a Doctor, a Lawyer, and many other professions that you can't just decide to " wing it". Some professions require a lot of education and if someone had almost zero secular education growing up, if they decide to catch up is almost impossible. Most chachamim had a profession as well, the kolel ideal is relatively new.


I also thought that kollel was a more recent invention but I asked a Litvish Rabbi who said that full time learning has been around since the beginning of Judaism.
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Bruria




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 6:50 pm
southernbubby wrote:
I also thought that kollel was a more recent invention but I asked a Litvish Rabbi who said that full time learning has been around since the beginning of Judaism.

Tell him to read the Talmud, chachamim did not learn all day, they all had professions. Using Torah to earn money is a relatively recent invention that started in Ashkenaz.
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 7:05 pm
Bruria wrote:
Tell him to read the Talmud, chachamim did not learn all day, they all had professions. Using Torah to earn money is a relatively recent invention that started in Ashkenaz.


Using Torah to earn money may be more recent but there has been Yisacher and Zevulin since the beginning of Judaism and apparently there were always people who learned while someone supported them.
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Mommyg8




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 7:15 pm
Bruria wrote:
Tell him to read the Talmud, chachamim did not learn all day, they all had professions. Using Torah to earn money is a relatively recent invention that started in Ashkenaz.


Rabbi Akiva had a profession? And his talmidim? The Rambam? (Before his brother passed away).

In the times of tanach, shevet levi was the designated learning shevet. And shevet Shimon were the melamdim (thats why they were always poor). And of course, the classic Yesachar and Zevulan.

In Europe it was very common for men to go away for years at a time, learn in a local beis medrash, and the neshei chayil would bring them food. Not to mention that it was an accepted thing for each town to have a "batlan". It was common for promising young men to get a certain amount of years of support from their fathers-in-law.

Of course different countries had different accepted practices - for example Poland seems to have been where all the learning was, in Germany and Hungary it was not as emphasized. (Read Glickel of Hameln, Marcus Lehman...).
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Bruria




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 7:17 pm
southernbubby wrote:
Using Torah to earn money may be more recent but there has been Yisacher and Zevulin since the beginning of Judaism and apparently there were always people who learned while someone supported them.

That's a midrash and only one example, not set as a standard for all. Think of Avraham, Yaakov, David, all the Nesiim of the Sanhedrin, Rambam,and Rambam by the way says it's forbidden to earn money to teach Torah.
The midrash says Yissachar was a farmer and gathered produce that Zevulun sold, you can verify yourself, Bereshit Rabbah 99:9
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 7:48 pm
Bruria wrote:
That's a midrash and only one example, not set as a standard for all. Think of Avraham, Yaakov, David, all the Nesiim of the Sanhedrin, Rambam,and Rambam by the way says it's forbidden to earn money to teach Torah.
The midrash says Yissachar was a farmer and produced produce that Zevulun sold, you can verify yourself, Bereshit Rabbah 99:9


Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi was wealthy and sat and learned. Probably there were those who worked until they had enough to live on and then they sat and learned.
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Bruria




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 8:03 pm
southernbubby wrote:
Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi was wealthy and sat and learned. Probably there were those who worked until they had enough to live on and then they sat and learned.

Why were they wealthy? Were they wealthy because someone else was wealthy and supporting them? Do you think Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi was earning money from studying Torah?He actually came from a rich family.
I think you are confused, I am not criticizing learning, I am FOR it, what I am against is impairing kids by not giving them secular studies. I believe in both. And there is more tradition in having a profession AND being a chacham than only learning. Like someone else mentioned here, there is a Mishnah that says a father is supposed to teach his son a profession.
Check your sources, the actual sources, don't take my word for it.
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Mommyg8




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 8:07 pm
Bruria wrote:
Why were they wealthy? Were they wealthy because someone else was wealthy and supporting them? Do you think Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi was earning money from studying Torah?He actually came from a rich family.
I think you are confused, I am not criticizing learning, I am FOR it, what I am against is impairing kids by not giving them secular studies. I believe in both. And there is more tradition in having a profession AND being a chacham than only learning. Like someone else mentioned here, there is a Mishnah that says a father is supposed to teach his son a profession.
Check your sources, the actual sources, don't take my word for it.


The Roshei Yeshivos, Rebbes and Rabanim are the ones to make these decisions for the klal. You can make your own decisions for your own children.

In any case, there is no possible way that someone can become both a professional and a talmud chacham in today's high pressure work world. At least not at the same time.
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Bruria




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 8:16 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
The Roshei Yeshivos, Rebbes and Rabanim are the ones to make these decisions for the klal. You can make your own decisions for your own children.

In any case, there is no possible way that someone can become both a professional and a talmud chacham in today's high pressure work world. At least not at the same time.

I thought the Sanhedrin decided what's allowed and forbidden, not modern day rabbis. In any case, I agree with you that everyone has free will, but as I saw on this thread, many mothers wish their children had a choice but have none. I think that if one chooses to dedicate themselves to both it is possible, I am an optimist. A person can become a rabbi and also have a profession, I have met many like this, that are doctors, lawyers, engineers and also have semicha. I don't think this is wrong and I can't understand why anyone would look down upon them. They have kodesh and secular knowledge. Support themselves and teach Torah.
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Mommyg8




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 8:30 pm
Bruria wrote:
I thought the Sanhedrin decided what's allowed and forbidden, not modern day rabbis. In any case, I agree with you that everyone has free will, but as I saw on this thread, many mothers wish their children had a choice but have none. I think that if one chooses to dedicate themselves to both it is possible, I am an optimist. A person can become a rabbi and also have a profession, I have met many like this, that are doctors, lawyers, engineers and also have semicha. I don't think this is wrong and I can't understand why anyone would look down upon them. They have kodesh and secular knowledge. Support themselves and teach Torah.


To say there are MANY is certainly an exaggeration. And even those (very few) that have both- did they do both programs simultaneously? Or did they get smichah first, and then started medical/law/engineering later on? Most human beings are not able to do both, practically speaking. We often find that time is finite, and there is only so much opportunity. (Also, full time, serious learning is not just about getting smichah, real learning can go beyond that.)

I'm questioning the assumption that people don't have choices. In the Chassidishe world, there are a few yeshivos that have a pretty decent secular education. In the litvish world, the majority have a decent secular education as well.

And like I've said before, if parents are determined they can make it happen. My own brother went to a real Chassidish yeshiva, but is very highly self educated - because the support was there from the home.
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amother




Emerald


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 8:36 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
To say there are MANY is certainly an exaggeration. And even those (very few) that have both- did they do both programs simultaneously? Or did they get smichah first, and then started medical/law/engineering later on? Most human beings are not able to do both, practically speaking. We often find that time is finite, and there is only so much opportunity. (Also, full time, serious learning is not just about getting smichah, real learning can go beyond that.)

I'm questioning the assumption that people don't have choices. In the Chassidishe world, there are a few yeshivos that have a pretty decent secular education. In the litvish world, the majority have a decent secular education as well.

And like I've said before, if parents are determined they can make it happen. My own brother went to a real Chassidish yeshiva, but is very highly self educated - because the support was there from the home.


There are many in the YU world who get smicha and law degrees, engineering or even phds at the same time.
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 8:55 pm
Bruria wrote:
Why were they wealthy? Were they wealthy because someone else was wealthy and supporting them? Do you think Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi was earning money from studying Torah?He actually came from a rich family.
I think you are confused, I am not criticizing learning, I am FOR it, what I am against is impairing kids by not giving them secular studies. I believe in both. And there is more tradition in having a profession AND being a chacham than only learning. Like someone else mentioned here, there is a Mishnah that says a father is supposed to teach his son a profession.
Check your sources, the actual sources, don't take my word for it.


Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi was able to learn due to the family money. What I am trying to say is that there have always been 2 opinions; 1 is to combine Torah learning with a trade and the other is to dedicate one's self to a life of learning.
The primacy of Torah learning has always been regarded as integral to Judaism regardless of the path taken.
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Bruria




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 9:03 pm
southernbubby wrote:
Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi was able to learn due to the family money. What I am trying to say is that there have always been 2 opinions; 1 is to combine Torah learning with a trade and the other is to dedicate one's self to a life of learning.
The primacy of Torah learning has always been regarded as integral to Judaism regardless of the path taken.

Again, I am FOR learning, but I am also FOR having a profession. Like most chachamim did.
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