My husband shook hands with a woman

Mommyg8

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 12:10 pm

amother wrote:

Mommyg8 - I would really like to know the source that says it is totally assur to shake hands in business situations. My dh and I have always done so as we find the explaining that we "don't do that" to be awkward, embarrassing to both parties and not necessary as it is not derech chiba.

Naturalmom5 did a great job explaining it, so I don't have to. I came across too strong - I should have said that many don't no matter what, even though there are heterim in certain situations. A heter can be gotten for certain situations, but to say that's it totally ok no matter what is simply not true.

My dh just told me this story - R' Simcha Wasserman met with a couple who were the parents of one of his talmidim, who did not come from a frum home. The mother of his talmud put out her hand when she met him (on purpose). R Simcha shook her hand and then said that she should know that he doesn't usually shake hands with women but he only shook her hand this time so as not to embarrass her but next time she should not extend her hand because he won't shake. He said this was from his father R Elchonon Wasserman.

chestnut

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 12:12 pm

Yes, you are overacting (also it's understandable, coming from a chassidishe background where it's a very clear assur).
Frum women discuss all the time how to avoid shaking men's hands when working with non jews, without offending them. Most ppl get embarrassed on the spot and don't want to embarrass the other party, so they shake. Chances are, if it were you and you weren't prepared for this, you'd have shaken too or sounded very awkward mumbling smth about not shaking hands with men.
I bet now he'll talk to others about the ways to avoid it in the future

pause

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 12:44 pm

amother wrote:

Hi. I'm chassidish. I shake hands with men in meetings. DH shakes hands with women. Don't view yourself as a klutz. Kids don't have to know and he should not have told you if this was going to be your reaction.

Do you also post publicly about other aveiros you do?

I mean, it's one thing if you get an express heter for certain situations. It's quite another to disregard the halacha completely.

And explain to me how the bolded is relevant?

HeartyAppetite

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 12:48 pm

amother wrote:

I did this once!!!
And I am the furthest thing from a klutz.
I'm a Chassidish woman who was caught off guard and shook hands with a man.
I was so upset at myself afterwards, the last thing I'd need is my husband berating me.
He helped me calm down and look at it as a lesson to learn for what to do in the future.

I had the same situation! I was so taken off guard.....

amother

Amber

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 12:49 pm

amother wrote:

OP here

People, this is coming from a man who never looks at women!! He should know better.

I will just add that I have a self esteem issue. Maybe that's the reason why I'm so ridiculously judgemental of others Banging head

Ok, I'm not chassidish, but I'm trying to apply this on a practical level. I understand that if you and dh were talking to a rebbe, the rebbe wouldn't look at you when you're talking to him or when he's talking to you. But how does DH sit in a business meeting with secular people and not look at a woman who is talking directly to him? How does he respond to a woman? He looks at the ceiling while addressing her point as she is staring at him? Wouldn't this make him look strange?

momX4

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 12:55 pm

amother wrote:

Can't read the whole thread now.
Please get over it. It happens. There are heterim even if our husbands. might not make use of them. (I'm yeshivish.)
My kids saw the following. We went to deliver mm to a lovely old survivor couple we knew, a'h and before I could see it coming, the husband kissed me on the cheek.

Your kids walked away with a valuable lesson. This was the most important and meaningful MM you gave put that year.

amother

Lavender

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 12:56 pm

I think she is saying if kids aren't old enough to understand nuances of situations, it isn't like u have to make an announcement and tell them. And I assume if she and her husband are shaking hand in business meetings, they hold it is ok and don't feel they are doing an aveira. I don't offer my hand but I shake hands if it is oferred and Fee comfortable going by the more lenient views on that- since many of them are rabanim I listen to for other things as well. If I am going to have a long term relationship with a colleague - like someone directly in my office, I do explain it to them, but if it is a one time shake and I forgot to have something in my hand I don't feel bad because I know there is what to rely on and it is so obviously not derech Chiba. Rav Schechter and others have shiurim on this on the internet and quote numerous well known opinions with the names of the rabanim in both directions. They are not made up opinions. And even people who don't go by a more lenient opinion For this and numerous other issues will agree that if the more lenient opinion exists within legitimate sources then there is what to rely on if a mistake is made or it is a very ackward situation. And the story is Rav wasserman has heen told before and published so clearly there is what to rely on even if it isn't what u normally want to be doing.

Chana Miriam S

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 12:58 pm

I’m not chassidish but I have been married for 25 years and your disrespect of him makes me think you’re the problem. For goodness sake, he told you because he regretted it and felt he’d made a mistake. God forbid you ever need to do tshuva I hope he is more empathetic and respectful than you.

amother

cornflower

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 1:06 pm

pause wrote:

DH and I have both been told we are allowed to. It's important because our children don't need to know about heterim or things like that.

thunderstorm

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 1:07 pm

OP, I didn't read through the thread. But my DH worked in a place where this was always a challenge. The hardest part was that he worked with frum Jews who DID have a heter to shake hands and my DHs Rav didn't give him the heter. So he couldn't just say "we don't shake hands" because the other three Jews in the meeting were allowed to shake hands. Go explain that to someone . So he came up with an idea. He always walked into meetings with a coffee in one hand and a binder in the other and would show he is juggling too much and would nod and say hello. This trick worked for him for over a decade.
I on the other hand was put on the spot my first two times and I shook hands feeling totally lost. But since then I built up the courage to tell people that as a religious woman I'm not allowed to shake hands. I would say 90% of people understand , about 10% get a bit offended or hurt. But I always apologize and let them know That I don't mean to be disrespectful.
Cut your DH some slack. But he should work out a plan for the future because it most likely will come up again.
Also, one more point, this mishap does not make your DH a klutz in any way. It would do you well not to apply labels. Sorry that this upset you so much. I've been in your DHs shoes and so has my own DH and we both shook that first couple of times until we figured out what works and we are not klutzes, I promise.

amother

Amber

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 1:21 pm

thunderstorm wrote:

You'r poor dh! I think you've mentioned other strict chumros that your rav has paskened for you. That's an impossible spot. To be sitting there with 3 other religious men all of whom can shake hands and your dh is sitting there trying to excuse himself.....tough spot. Like others have suggested before, time for a new rav. You deserve better.

MiracleMama

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 1:27 pm

I think everyone is being hard on OP.

I also was told that in business situations if it is awkward to leave someone's arm out while trying to explain why you don't shake hands, just shake hands.

But it sounds like in OPs world it isn't done. Even in business. Even in unusual circumstances. So to be fair, you have to imagine your own DH doing something outside your own comfort zone, something not allowed in your circles.

OP, it does sound like your husband just panicked. It doesn't sound like he did it because he wanted to touch this person. It sounds like now that it's happened and been discussed, he will be prepared for when a similar situation presents itself. We all get caught off gaurd sometimes. We all do things sometimes, that given the opportunity to think them through first, we'd do differently. But there was no time here. It happened. It isn't being klutzy. It's being young and inexperienced and human. Please forgive your DH.

dankbar

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 1:28 pm

You probably worked before you got married & such topics were discussed how to handle. Chassidishe boys are just taught not to look at women once they're bar mitzva. They are never taught work ethics before they land a job which can be many years after marriage. He probably didn't even know that such scenario exists till it happened. He probably didn't know what the right thing to do is in such a situation. Is it expected of him to shake as a business norm? Lose deal or job? Is it normal & accepted that frum guys refuse? Will the other party get offended? How will his boss view him, if hes was trying to impress on a new job? Now he can ask his rav & discuss with friends or his boss/colleague how to go about next time.

amother

Periwinkle

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 1:41 pm

I'm yeshivish. When I first started working in a non-religious law firm, we asked a very yeshivish rosh yeshiva would to do if such a situation came up. He said I should enter the job thinking I was never going to shake hands with a man but if I'm stuck in such a situation, well, it happens sometimes.

I once didn't respond when someone stuck out my hand and my boss, who was right there, just said Oh, she won't shake your hand.

In another situation, an attorney's son stuck out his hand and I automatically took it.

Just know, the point is to do his best and he'll be more aware for next time.

amother

Hotpink

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 1:41 pm

My husband and I are very often in this situation. People respect us for who we are and understand if we just say we don't shake hands... since its the first time, it can be quite a shock. For the next time, you can help your husband have a plan of action. My chassidishe mother in law was with us once and she shook hands with somekne who stuck out her hand to her. My husband was quite embarrassed. She's very proper and probably didn't know what to do. The main thing is to be proud of your customs and noone will judge you. (If they do it's their problem)