My husband shook hands with a woman

amother

Natural

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 7:56 pm

crust wrote:

I'm saying that I can understand that he got lost. If someone was not prepared he can get lost from an unexpected handshake.

But-
I am confused how it can happen that a boy from a heimishe yeshiva doesn't "know" that we dont shake hands.

He knew but was caught in a situation where it would make it awkward not to shake so maybe he meant he didn't know how to get rid of the situation. Or whatever....he is not comfortable saying something else. He means to say he felt obligated to shake. What do.you want him.to say? That he failed? That s too hard to say. So he said a stupid excuse that he didnt.know. I would probably.also say something.silly in his place He feels bad and came to.you for support. Just dont remind him the story. If he reminds you.be supportive. It can happen.. As I said it happened to me at least twice in my life.

crust

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 8:20 pm

tigerwife wrote:

Have you ever been in this situation? I have. I would never offer a handshake to a man but I’ve been in situations where it came up and I was caught off guard and took the hand in order not to offend the other party. I hate doing it, even though I have been told that a handshake in a business setting is not derech chiba and allowed bidieved. I wish it was simple to just offer an explanation, but there have been times when I have even anticipated a handshake prior to a meeting and tried to come up with a plan to avoid it yet it became unavoidable. I’m not proud or happy about it, but this is not a situation that occurs out of forgetfulness. It comes from being flustered and not wanting to offend, especially in a business situation where it will cost you a deal.

I understand this situation. To answer your question yes I was in this situation before.

The only thing I was shocked about was that a chassidisher sais he didn't know what to do. When I first read the OP it seemed like he was saying that he didn't know if we shake hands with opposite gender. This was baffling to me; A chassidish man does not know this? Something didnt make sense.

But by now I think that perhaps I misunderstood the Op.
He did not say that he didn't know whether we shake hands or not. He knew that we dont shake hands. What he didnt know was how to handle this situation.

Perhaps I misunderstood and perhaps he was saying "I didn't know what we do in such a situation where we are caught off gaurd".

Op am I right?

Last edited by crust on Sun, Dec 02 2018, 9:27 pm; edited 2 times in total

sky

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 8:25 pm

Not shaking hands is an Extremely difficult thing to handle gracefully. Even after not doing it for years in a professional setting I still get flustered.
If it may happen again best is to prepare and practice before hand.

(I was once handed an award in front of the entire company and everyone knows I don’t shake hands. It’s a big joke among my coworkers. I was thinking to remind HR but I knew the guy giving it would remember. My luck he was out sick and it was the new CEO. I was caught so off guard. And I couldn’t shake hands because the entire audience knew I didn’t. I wish I would have handled it better and I know had I been better prepared I would have)

out-of-towner

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 9:17 pm

amother wrote:

I highly doubt that R' Yaakov Kaminetsky paskened like that. Just because the school looked to him for halachic guidance doesn't mean that this came from him.

Actually it was extremely likely, as the Elementary school principal was his son in law. Don't make such assumptions so fast.

tigerwife

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 9:27 pm

crust wrote:

I am getting hoarse.
I understand this situation. I don't know where my personal experience comes in here but to answer your question yes I was in this situation before.

The only thing I was shocked about was that a chassidisher sais he didn't know what to do. When I first read the OP it seemed like he was saying that he didn't know if we shake hands with opposite gender and this was baffling to me. A chassidish man does not know this?

By now I think that he did not say that he didn't know if we shake hands or not.

Perhaps I misunderstood and perhaps he was saying "I didn't know what we do in such a situation where we are caught off gaurd".

I hope this clarifies it.

My apologies for the hoarseness, I hope you are still able to post despite it! Wink

Yes, I think we were just understanding the OP in different ways.

simba

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 9:27 pm

crust wrote:

Yes it does. Thank you.

amother

Papaya

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 11:03 pm

I’m chassidish too and I know I shouldn’t shake hands with a man. Yet it has happened to me once where I got lost in the moment n it sort of just happened where I shook a mans hand.
I would be upset if my husband felt the things you wrote here , ppl r human we make mistakes , get lost in the spur of the moment... Try not to be so harsh.

amother

Ivory

Mon, Dec 03 2018, 12:33 am

Do you get equally upset re other violations of halacha & custom?

Like if he told a lie in business (which is not permitted according to any Rabbonim, Rav Kamenetsky or otherwise, but lets face it is fairly common among frum Jews of all stripes and types, even the non-handshake-ers) would you be equally upset?

Metukah

Mon, Dec 03 2018, 4:30 am

Op reconsider your position and treat your husband more kindly.

Its a very difficult situation to be in.

After years in a professional setting, I still find it hard. I sometimes meet politicians and other professionals and I'm always terrified they'll put their hands out. I have a pre prepared script to make sure I don't come across as offensive. I try to have something in both hands, but it's still hard and makes me feel really nervous.

It couldn't have been easy for your dh op. He probably feels klutzy enough without you judging him.

Be kind.

Mayflower

Mon, Dec 03 2018, 4:54 am

Some men, even chassidishe men, hold that it's worse to cause embarrassment to a woman by leaving her like a fool with her hand out than to shake her hand.

Since he doesn't even look at women, it was maybe the first time he was in this situation and on the spot he was unsure which route to take.

I work in a non Jewish business setting where not shaking hands would not really go over well.. B'h the situation doesn't present itself every day but when it does, I just shake hands.

Once I really messed up when a man came to our office to present himself to my colleagues and me. He shook hands with my (non-Jewish) colleagues and I automatically put my hand out... And then I saw he was wearing a kippah. He looked at me all surprised, I quickly put down my hand, but in the meantime he put out his hand, and we had the most awkward handshake ever. I felt like a klutz for days.

Your husband probably feels bad enough as it is, you really should not make him feel even worse.

Metukah

Mon, Dec 03 2018, 5:13 am

Mayflower wrote:

Some men, even chassidishe men, hold that it's worse to cause embarrassment to a woman by leaving her like a fool with her hand out than to shake her hand.

Why cause embarrassment? If explained nicely and respectfully there is no need for anyone to feel embarrassed.

Mayflower

Mon, Dec 03 2018, 5:36 am

Metukah wrote:

Why cause embarrassment? If explained nicely and respectfully there is no need for anyone to feel embarrassed.

Maybe there's no "need" to feel embarrassed but that's often what ends up happening. People feel rejected.

If you can explain nicely before meeting someone, that's great. But once someone puts their hand out, it's very hard to not cause bad feelings.

heidi

Mon, Dec 03 2018, 6:47 am

out-of-towner wrote:

Actually it was extremely likely, as the Elementary school principal was his son in law. Don't make such assumptions so fast.

I was just about to post this.
In addition to the dean being Rav Yaakov's sil, the high school principal was an open minded learned brilliant and kind man. He was very frum but imho would never have embarrassed anyone.
I recently shook the hand that an Arab co-worker extended to me. I felt the possible repurcussions of him thinking I had spurned him for political reasons would be a bigger chillul Hashem than shaking his hand.
I don't extend my hand to anyone but do hold that it's not derech chiba and thus not worth embarrassing someone if they extend their hand to me.
Also in my line of work I am often in the position of being there for emotional support when parents lose a child. I have had a father grab my hands for support when he was given the news of his baby's unexpected death. You can bet your bottom dollar that being there for him was halachically the right thing to do.