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Does prayer really have power? How do you know?
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amother
Green


 

Post Sun, Dec 09 2018, 7:07 am
I'm conflicted with davening for something. On one hand tefilah often includes Bakasha and specific requests. It seems that it is appropriate to ask hashem for things. We ask for health, shiduchim, children, and money, to name a few. On the other hand I can't help but notice that ultimately, there really doesn't appear to be ANY difference between those that daven and ask hashem and those that don't bother davening when it comes to literally anything. So which is it? Does tefilah actually help, or is it really just a way of trying to establish a connection with hashem? And if it is only about a connection, how does it help create a connection when hashem is treating everyone the same in a seemingly random way that is clearly beyond human comprehension?
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amother
Powderblue


 

Post Sun, Dec 09 2018, 7:33 am
Good question I see that as well I often attribute it to others having zchut avot they must of had parents or grandparents that are praying for their behalf and logical reason which keeps me sane is that they are getting their reward now in this life while mine is waiting for me
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 09 2018, 8:53 am
There is a shiur by Rabbi Menachem Nissel called Understanding Unanswered Prayers.

I was going to try to find a link to it but I found this and will link this instead:
https://www.imamother.com/foru.....rt=40
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 09 2018, 9:13 am
there really doesn't appear to be ANY difference between those that daven and ask hashem and those that don't bother davening when it comes to literally anything

How do you know? Do you know what people asked for or don't ask for?
How do you know that someone else--a parent, grandparent, friend, community member-- didn't ask on their behalf?
Furthermore, what makes you think that the only way to get things is to ask for them?
How do you know that whatever people get isn't because they deserve it for whatever reason?
And how do you know that what you think of as good things that people have are necessarily really good? Just as a mashal, suppose Hilly gets a bag full of candy every day from his grandma and Willy has none. Hilly is happy. Hilly thinks he gets candy because he's a good boy. But Hilly will need root canal before he's Bar Mitzvah, so is that candy really a good thing?
Never look at what other people have and wonder why they have it and you don't. No good can ever come of such thinking.
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amother
Cyan


 

Post Sun, Dec 09 2018, 10:31 am
Sure prayer helps. You gotta believe. Not one tefillah goes l'ibud. We just don't know for what & when it helps, now or later
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dankbar




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 09 2018, 10:36 am
Someone just shared with me how her child was lying in hosp for weeks on end....she davened to Hashem saying....shes already 49 days in hospital. By Matan Torah everyone got healed on day 50....on 50 day dr said she can go home....just need a day for observation. She was released on day 51.
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amother
Green


 

Post Sun, Dec 09 2018, 10:37 am
[quote="zaq"]there really doesn't appear to be ANY difference between those that daven and ask hashem and those that don't bother davening when it comes to literally anything

How do you know? Do you know what people asked for or don't ask for?

I think it's fair to assume we are all asking for health, parnassah, shidduchim, and children. No, in my unscientific study, I am close to 100% certain that those that are davening for these things are not receiving these brochos more than those that never daven.


How do you know that someone else--a parent, grandparent, friend, community member-- didn't ask on their behalf?

Is there any reason to believe this is hashem's system? I feel the burden of demonstrating this is on you because you believe there is a link between davening and receiving bracha. If a family member insisted on only wearing yellow socks and when asked why, responded that she does better in school when wearing those socks. If I asked her how she knows, I don't think it would be reasonable for her to respond to me asking how I know it's not true.

Furthermore, what makes you think that the only way to get things is to ask for them?
How do you know that whatever people get isn't because they deserve it for whatever reason?


This would be a slippery slope because again, I can say with close to 100% certainty that this is not hashem's system. Namely, that people get what they obviously deserve. Good people have good lives and bad people have bad lives. This is obviously not so. The only way for you to say people are getting what they deserve is if you to say that while it's true, we have no understanding of it. Hardly a logical argument.

And how do you know that what you think of as good things that people have are necessarily really good?

I think it's reasonable to say that things that hashem refers to as a blessing are good. Hashem blessed the avos with life, children, and wealth. I think to say that cancer really might be good but we don't understand why is intellectually dishonest. Shidduchim, healthy children and parnassah are good. Cancer, not getting married, not having children are bad. Is this really debatable?
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amother
Chocolate


 

Post Sun, Dec 09 2018, 10:43 am
dankbar wrote:
Someone just shared with me how her child was lying in hosp for weeks on end....she davened to Hashem saying....shes already 49 days in hospital. By Matan Torah everyone got healed on day 50....on 50 day dr said she can go home....just need a day for observation. She was released on day 51.


So, what would have happened if she hadn't prayed? Her daughter would have been in hospital longer? My mother died after a long hospital stay. Did she not give the correct argument when davening? Did not enough people say tehillim for her?

Every time someone tells one of these stories I wonder if they know how it's a knife in the heart of people for whom davening didn't "work".
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amother
Brunette


 

Post Sun, Dec 09 2018, 10:43 am
If you believe that the Tora came from the god who created the world and controlling everything than you know that he said if you davening than it will influence the situation. So you need to go and learn the fundamentals of the Tora and why we believe. Like that the Tora was given to us in nevua on mount Sinai in front of 6 million people etc.
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amother
Green


 

Post Sun, Dec 09 2018, 11:06 am
amother wrote:
If you believe that the Tora came from the god who created the world and controlling everything than you know that he said if you davening than it will influence the situation. So you need to go and learn the fundamentals of the Tora and why we believe. Like that the Tora was given to us in nevua on mount Sinai in front of 6 million people etc.



How do you believe something that we don't have any reason to believe is true? If I told you that drinking apple juice reduces the likelihood of cancer, you would ask me to demonstrate this is true. Therefore, if you are a poster like dankbar, who genuinely believes that people who daven don't have as many tzoros as people who don't daven, then the idea of tefilah helping makes sense. Obviously she'd have a hard time proving this since she probably is going on a few stories she knows as well as exaggerated stories in books as opposed to what she actually honestly sees with her eyes, but if you agree that health issues, infertility, and tragedy go around without discriminating based on tefilah, how does this make any sense?
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amother
Chartreuse


 

Post Sun, Dec 09 2018, 11:11 am
amother wrote:
I'm conflicted with davening for something. On one hand tefilah often includes Bakasha and specific requests. It seems that it is appropriate to ask hashem for things. We ask for health, shiduchim, children, and money, to name a few. On the other hand I can't help but notice that ultimately, there really doesn't appear to be ANY difference between those that daven and ask hashem and those that don't bother davening when it comes to literally anything. So which is it? Does tefilah actually help, or is it really just a way of trying to establish a connection with hashem? And if it is only about a connection, how does it help create a connection when hashem is treating everyone the same in a seemingly random way that is clearly beyond human comprehension?


I think it's a way of connection for the most part. Many people who are not frum or not Jewish get things without praying and frum Jews who pray don't always get those things. In other words, Hashem decides to give what he wants to whom he wants. Imo, a small minority davens and gets what they want based on that-ultimately Hashem decides what's good for someone, so if that person didn't get it even though they prayed it's beyond our comprehension why. It's hard to think why did that non Jew get something that I've been praying for for years, and they got it so easily without prayer without anything, but I guess that's our test and a hard one. ie: Why do some people who aren't frum, didn't daven for it, find their soul mate right away, while others who are frum or became frum, have davened so hard, visited amuka many times, gave tzedaka to hachnasat kallah, got brachos from Rebbes and their dc are still not married? There are no answers in this world. We just have to realize that what Hashem does is beyond our comprehension and we won't find out till after 120 why He did certain things.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 09 2018, 11:56 am
Don’t try to use logic to prove principles of faith. If they could be proven through logic, there would be no non-believers, ever—and there would be no need for faith. That’s why it’s called FAITH—because it cannot be proven by human logic. If you can’t manage that, why are you Jewish? Why are you observant?
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dankbar




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 09 2018, 12:37 pm
You can daven or talk to Hashem in your own language any time & ask for anything. Doesn't mean you will get the outcome you specifically want. If you have challenges you can also daven for Hashem to give you clarity, serenity, strength to pull thru your challenges not only to take it away. It makes easier for people when they know Hashem is at the their side no matter what they are going thru. When they feel connected they have more strength. First & foremost is to believe. If you believe tefilla can help then it can. You need the emunah & bitichon to trust & rely on Hashem, to know Hashem is kol yuchol, he can help & wants to help & will help. We have to know how to daven to Hashem. If you don't believe it will help, then you're not even giving the chance that you can be helped.

I did experience firsthand yeshuos as well
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dankbar




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 09 2018, 12:40 pm
I can tell you many stories, but to non believers stories won't help. If you want to believe & strengthen your emunah & bitichon then stories can help do that but if you're only looking to challenge & prove me wrong there is no point in more stories
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 09 2018, 12:42 pm
Hashem is not a vending machine. We can't quantify if our tefillos "work".
They all work on some level. If not according to our script, zechuyos are being created that will be apportioned as Hashem deems appropriate.
And we are, in the process, connecting to Hashem, which is the point.
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dankbar




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 09 2018, 12:48 pm
Story with this little patient that got released from hospital is not a random story....I personally witnessed the ongoing before & after. The mom was all heartbroken about her child's situation. They were seeing no way out. The mom told me that the girl heard about an upcoming trip to Orlando for patients & wanted to join. Everyone was laughing that it's impossible being in her situaton. I try to be mechazek the mom saying, that it just might happen even if seems impossible now, Hashem will listen to this little girls prayers. I met her next time, mom shared the story with me. The girl was dancing to the music that night by an event & next morning she joined the trip. Mamish days after she was released. HOIDI LaHashem! I was dancing & rejoicing together with this mom!
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amother
Vermilion


 

Post Sun, Dec 09 2018, 2:56 pm
An international flight was due to land in New York, but 30 minutes before landing, the pilot announced that it would be diverted to Boston because of bad weather. Immediately, a Chossid took out his Tehillim and started fervently praying.

A stewardess saw him and thought "Stupid man, how can he possibly believe that this will make a difference?" but, sure enough, 20 minutes later the pilot announced that the weather had settled and landing would be in New York as previously planned.

The remorseful stewardess went to the Chossid and said she that she owed him an apology.
"For what?" replied the Chossid. "For doubting the power of prayer", she replied. "Your prayers to land in New York were clearly answered".

"Oh no they weren't, I wasn't praying to land in New York...I was thanking Gd for the diversion...because I live in Boston!"
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amother
Green


 

Post Sun, Dec 09 2018, 3:05 pm
zaq wrote:
Don’t try to use logic to prove principles of faith. If they could be proven through logic, there would be no non-believers, ever—and there would be no need for faith. That’s why it’s called FAITH—because it cannot be proven by human logic. If you can’t manage that, why are you Jewish? Why are you observant?



Faith alone is a silly reason to believe anything. There isn't any belief that isn't reasonable if faith is a legitimate basis for believing something. If I say that tomorrow I'm going to fly to the moon. Why do I believe it? Faith. Does this make sense? I get that with god everything is so incomprehensible that there has to be a component of faith, but faith alone is pretty weak. What's more is that while I concede that with god there is faith, I don't see why we have to be vague about the power of prayer. Statistically, does it help achieve what we are asking for or not? When someone posts "tehilim needed" and several hundred kapitlach are said, does the person it was said for actually have a better chance of a recovery as a result of the tehilim? And if all you can say is, "prove it doesn't work", that's a pretty weak answer.

The reason I'm observant is because I'm already middle age and I'm completely in the frum lifestyle and extremely comfortable with it. I just wish I felt that certain parts of it made a little more sense.
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amother
Green


 

Post Sun, Dec 09 2018, 3:10 pm
dankbar wrote:
Story with this little patient that got released from hospital is not a random story....I personally witnessed the ongoing before & after. The mom was all heartbroken about her child's situation. They were seeing no way out. The mom told me that the girl heard about an upcoming trip to Orlando for patients & wanted to join. Everyone was laughing that it's impossible being in her situaton. I try to be mechazek the mom saying, that it just might happen even if seems impossible now, Hashem will listen to this little girls prayers. I met her next time, mom shared the story with me. The girl was dancing to the music that night by an event & next morning she joined the trip. Mamish days after she was released. HOIDI LaHashem! I was dancing & rejoicing together with this mom!



But 1 or even 10 stories don't mean anything. My question to you is very clear. Do you believe that there is a shmira that hashem gives to people that daven?
In other words is there more infertility among people that don't daven and keep mitzvos?
Is there more illness and death among those that don't daven and keep mitzvos?
Is there more struggle with basic parnassah among people that din't daven and keep mitzvos?

I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from.
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allthingsblue




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 09 2018, 3:23 pm
If we were able to prove that tefillah works, we'd have no bechira.
Tefillah strengthens my connection to Hashem and helps me remember that everything He does is for good, and reignites my emunah. It gives me courage and fortutitude to face challenges and helps me know that I'm not alone. That alone is a benefit of tefillah!
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