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Does prayer really have power? How do you know?
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amother
Green


 

Post Sun, Dec 09 2018, 3:41 pm
allthingsblue wrote:
If we were able to prove that tefillah works, we'd have no bechira.
Tefillah strengthens my connection to Hashem and helps me remember that everything He does is for good, and reignites my emunah. It gives me courage and fortutitude to face challenges and helps me know that I'm not alone. That alone is a benefit of tefillah!



How does tefilah do any of the things you are describing? If you agree that tefilah doesn't give you better health, longer life, children, or parnassah, than how does davening to hashem remind you that everything he does is for good? If an older single pours her heart out to hashem begging he find her a shidduch and year after year goes by with no shidduch and now she is past her child bearing years, how does this scenario help her:
1. Remember that everything he does is for the good.
2. reignite her emunah.
3. give her courage to face more challenges.

It would seem the opposite is true.
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amother
Slategray


 

Post Sun, Dec 09 2018, 4:38 pm
Actually there was a study in 2006 that showed prayer was counter-productive in terms of creating medical complications

Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has found.

And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms, perhaps because of the expectations the prayers created, the researchers suggested.

Because it is the most scientifically rigorous investigation of whether prayer can heal illness, the study, begun almost a decade ago and involving more than 1,800 patients, has for years been the subject of speculation.

The question has been a contentious one among researchers. Proponents have argued that prayer is perhaps the most deeply human response to disease, and that it may relieve suffering by some mechanism that is not yet understood. Skeptics have contended that studying prayer is a waste of money and that it presupposes supernatural intervention, putting it by definition beyond the reach of science.

At least 10 studies of the effects of prayer have been carried out in the last six years, with mixed results. The new study was intended to overcome flaws in the earlier investigations. The report was scheduled to appear in The American Heart Journal next week, but the journal's publisher released it online yesterday.

In a hurriedly convened news conference, the study's authors, led by Dr. Herbert Benson, a cardiologist and director of the Mind/Body Medical Institute near Boston, said that the findings were not the last word on the effects of so-called intercessory prayer. But the results, they said, raised questions about how and whether patients should be told that prayers were being offered for them.

"One conclusion from this is that the role of awareness of prayer should be studied further," said Dr. Charles Bethea, a cardiologist at Integris Baptist Medical Center in Oklahoma City and a co-author of the study.

Other experts said the study underscored the question of whether prayer was an appropriate subject for scientific study.

"The problem with studying religion scientifically is that you do violence to the phenomenon by reducing it to basic elements that can be quantified, and that makes for bad science and bad religion," said Dr. Richard Sloan, a professor of behavioral medicine at Columbia and author of a forthcoming book, "Blind Faith: The Unholy Alliance of Religion and Medicine."

The study cost $2.4 million, and most of the money came from the John Templeton Foundation, which supports research into spirituality. The government has spent more than $2.3 million on prayer research since 2000.

Dean Marek, a chaplain at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn., and a co-author of the report, said the study said nothing about the power of personal prayer or about prayers for family members and friends.

Working in a large medical center like Mayo, Mr. Marek said, "You hear tons of stories about the power of prayer, and I don't doubt them."

In the study, the researchers monitored 1,802 patients at six hospitals who received coronary bypass surgery, in which doctors reroute circulation around a clogged vein or artery.

The patients were broken into three groups. Two were prayed for; the third was not. Half the patients who received the prayers were told that they were being prayed for; half were told that they might or might not receive prayers.

The researchers asked the members of three congregations — St. Paul's Monastery in St. Paul; the Community of Teresian Carmelites in Worcester, Mass.; and Silent Unity, a Missouri prayer ministry near Kansas City — to deliver the prayers, using the patients' first names and the first initials of their last names.

The congregations were told that they could pray in their own ways, but they were instructed to include the phrase, "for a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications."

Analyzing complications in the 30 days after the operations, the researchers found no differences between those patients who were prayed for and those who were not.

In another of the study's findings, a significantly higher number of the patients who knew that they were being prayed for — 59 percent — suffered complications, compared with 51 percent of those who were uncertain. The authors left open the possibility that this was a chance finding. But they said that being aware of the strangers' prayers also may have caused some of the patients a kind of performance anxiety.

"It may have made them uncertain, wondering am I so sick they had to call in their prayer team?" Dr. Bethea said.

The study also found that more patients in the uninformed prayer group — 18 percent — suffered major complications, like heart attack or stroke, compared with 13 percent in the group that did not receive prayers. In their report, the researchers suggested that this finding might also be a result of chance.

One reason the study was so widely anticipated was that it was led by Dr. Benson, who in his work has emphasized the soothing power of personal prayer and meditation.

received intercessory prayers; others found no difference. A 1997 study at the University of New Mexico, involving 40 alcoholics in rehabilitation, found that the men and women who knew they were being prayed for actually fared worse.

The new study was rigorously designed to avoid problems like the ones that came up in the earlier studies. But experts said the study could not overcome perhaps the largest obstacle to prayer study: the unknown amount of prayer each person received from friends, families, and congregations around the world who pray daily for the sick and dying.

Bob Barth, the spiritual director of Silent Unity, the Missouri prayer ministry, said the findings would not affect the ministry's mission.

"A person of faith would say that this study is interesting," Mr. Barth said, "but we've been praying a long time and we've seen prayer work, we know it works, and the research on prayer and spirituality is just getting started."
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 09 2018, 7:10 pm
amother wrote:
Faith alone is a silly reason to believe anything. There isn't any belief that isn't reasonable if faith is a legitimate basis for believing something. If I say that tomorrow I'm going to fly to the moon. Why do I believe it? Faith. Does this make sense? I get that with god everything is so incomprehensible that there has to be a component of faith, but faith alone is pretty weak. What's more is that while I concede that with god there is faith, I don't see why we have to be vague about the power of prayer. Statistically, does it help achieve what we are asking for or not? When someone posts "tehilim needed" and several hundred kapitlach are said, does the person it was said for actually have a better chance of a recovery as a result of the tehilim? And if all you can say is, "prove it doesn't work", that's a pretty weak answer.

The reason I'm observant is because I'm already middle age and I'm completely in the frum lifestyle and extremely comfortable with it. I just wish I felt that certain parts of it made a little more sense.


Dem’a fightin’ words, lady. I guess to you belief in G-d is silly. That IS what one arrives at if following your initial statement to its logical conclusion. I find it hard to believe that anyone has proven to you—really proven, not “ how can there not be a G-d, look at this amazing universe, the fact that it exists proves the existence of its Creator”—His existence to you. So why do you believe in Him if you believe that belief in anything based on faith alone is “silly”? (BTW Have you considered how many truly great people you have just dissed with that one I’ll-chosen word? )

If you are frum out of middle-aged inertia, I feel really sorry for you. But since our religion is one that emphasizes action above belief, your Olam Haba is probably safe as long as you follow the rules. Be glad you’re not Catholic, for in Catholicism, absent the belief, any good you do counts for nothing.
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amother
Sienna


 

Post Sun, Dec 09 2018, 7:17 pm
Me and dh discuss this and argue/disagree. Its true that it seems tefila doesnt "work" which is why I never daven the "real tefilos" and dont ever say tehilim (my mom is always saying tehilim). Nobody ever explained the purpose of tehilim and I dont understand how those words would relate to me saying tehilim for a yeshua for xyz.

But, I do daven in english to ask hashem to help me manage my suffering and to ask for a yeshua. It definitely strengthens my connection to hashem. But, as im writing this, im realizing that I am in constant contradiction. Bec I know that I see "davening doesnt work" meaning that bec I see ppl are not getting answered and I know hashem has his plan...so too wen I daven for a yeshua, I dont really expect it to happen.(I dont want to be dissapointed again)But, im hoping for it. However, I do expect hashem to help me manage and he does, but im still suffering a lot.

So, im constantly working on my bitachon telling myself hashem has a plan and hoping ill get a yeshua but not really believing it will happen.(which is clearly not full bitachon, but it is bec I believe hashem has a plan and will follow it regardless of tefila.) But, I think tefila is more about the connection with hashem. And, I never learned about it in school.

In school it was all about "daven daven daven...." and they told us "miraculous stories" like dankbar wrote here, which caused me to wrongly think "u daven and get wat u want". But thats not true and in shiurim or in school they tell us those stories to "pull us in" but it only turned me off when I grew up and saw in "real life" davening is about a connection with hashem and u probably wont get wat u davened for but u must believe watever does happen to u is all part of hashems plan. This knowledge does help me get through my day even though part of me is angry that im in the (seemingly) bad situation in the first place bec hashem feels its good for me.

All I can say is real life is confusing and ultimately most ppl have never really explained the above properly. I daven in english only and after seeing my relative suffer for many many yrs and now got a yeshua, im hoping that ill get one too but maybe not right now. But, in day to day I talk to hashem in english as my davening and im living for my yeshua one day. I dont believe tefila is powerful. Is this against torah view??? I hope not bec this is wat I see in life/reality. Tefila has one purpose: strengthen connection with hashem.
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amother
Green


 

Post Sun, Dec 09 2018, 7:39 pm
zaq wrote:
Dem’a fightin’ words, lady. I guess to you belief in G-d is silly. That IS what one arrives at if following your initial statement to its logical conclusion. I find it hard to believe that anyone has proven to you—really proven, not “ how can there not be a G-d, look at this amazing universe, the fact that it exists proves the existence of its Creator”—His existence to you. So why do you believe in Him if you believe that belief in anything based on faith alone is “silly”? (BTW Have you considered how many truly great people you have just dissed with that one I’ll-chosen word? )

If you are frum out of middle-aged inertia, I feel really sorry for you. But since our religion is one that emphasizes action above belief, your Olam Haba is probably safe as long as you follow the rules. Be glad you’re not Catholic, for in Catholicism, absent the belief, any good you do counts for nothing.



I'd rather not discuss proof of god. I believe in god and I think there are some very good reasons to believe there is a god. Let's leave it at that.
I'm trying to better understand why people believe tefilah helps in a tangible way when not only is there no evidence supporting it, there is a mountain of evidence against it. If I look back at my high school class around 20 years ago, there is clearly no link between davening and getting married and having a healthy family. And if we are being honest, I don't see how anyone can claim a direct link between davening and doing avodas hashem and any type of good or bad fortune that follows. Do you disagree? Do you believe that there are clear practical identifiable differences in the lives of people who daven as opposed to people who don't daven in terms of longevity, health, or fertility?
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Laiya




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 09 2018, 8:43 pm
amother wrote:
How does tefilah do any of the things you are describing? If you agree that tefilah doesn't give you better health, longer life, children, or parnassah, than how does davening to hashem remind you that everything he does is for good? If an older single pours her heart out to hashem begging he find her a shidduch and year after year goes by with no shidduch and now she is past her child bearing years, how does this scenario help her:
1. Remember that everything he does is for the good.
2. reignite her emunah.
3. give her courage to face more challenges.

It would seem the opposite is true.


Do you believe that mediation is helpful?

Even if you don't believe that tefillah causes a measurable change in one's situation, arguably it is still beneficial if only because it helps one reach a place of acceptance. But davening has the additional component of creating a connection with Hashem; knowing that He listens and cares, and you are not alone.

I think it is hard to relate to this, though, if you don't view G-d as loving, or you view Him as more "din" and less rachamim.
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amother
Green


 

Post Sun, Dec 09 2018, 9:08 pm
Laiya wrote:
Do you believe that mediation is helpful?

Even if you don't believe that tefillah causes a measurable change in one's situation, arguably it is still beneficial if only because it helps one reach a place of acceptance. But davening has the additional component of creating a connection with Hashem; knowing that He listens and cares, and you are not alone.

I think it is hard to relate to this, though, if you don't view G-d as loving, or you view Him as more "din" and less rachamim.



How do you know he listens and cares? If you can demonstrate this point, I would be very happy.
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Laiya




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 09 2018, 9:23 pm
amother wrote:
How do you know he listens and cares? If you can demonstrate this point, I would be very happy.


That's impossible, because how you interpret a situation is personal.
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dankbar




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 09 2018, 10:31 pm
Well my son was critical & the non Jewish bigshot doctor told me the only thing we can do is pray. So he believes it helps & you frum Jewish people don't believe?
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dankbar




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 09 2018, 10:37 pm
I once went to self growth course.... she was telling us how we can attract bracha in our life. How we open up our vessels to receive endless blessings from Hashem, to believe that he has enough & wants to give us. She told us to write down wht bracha we want in our life. I wrote zera shel kayama as I was suffering many years of infertility. Closed the binder & forgot about it. The next year she gave an advanced course. I arrived in maternity. The people asked me so you attracted the bracha you wanted in your life? Huh? I went to check what I wrote & found just exactly that. Unbelievable!
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dankbar




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 09 2018, 10:43 pm
I was the one who shared the chain of hashgacha pratis on another thread, go read it & then you will see there is no way not to believe.
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dankbar




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 09 2018, 10:50 pm
We don't always get the answers we want but we have to know that there is a plan even if we don't always understand. We are human & have limited understanding.

A mashal, a king hired an artist to create a masterpiece. He did a needlpoint. The king arrives & sees him tying knots in back. He is mad. Is this the masterpiece? All I see is tangles & knots - its a whole mumble jumble. Wait! Im not done yet. When done he turns it over & sees a beautiful picture & now he understands all the knots....

We are just a tiny dot in sea of creation spanning many generations. We are only seeing the little knots that seem to be mumble jumbled. Wait! When Moshiach will come & picture will be complete, only then will we see the beauty & understand all the little knots!

We will only have all answers either when were up there or when Moshiach comes!
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amother
Green


 

Post Sun, Dec 09 2018, 11:03 pm
dankbar wrote:
I was the one who shared the chain of hashgacha pratis on another thread, go read it & then you will see there is no way not to believe.


Plz share again.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 09 2018, 11:13 pm
amother wrote:
I can't help but notice that ultimately, there really doesn't appear to be ANY difference between those that daven and ask hashem and those that don't bother davening when it comes to literally anything.

It rather seems to me that Kohelet noticed this as well in the start of ch 9. Only he spoke about sacrifices rather than prayer.

https://www.sefaria.org.il/Ecc.....ng=bi
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amother
Sienna


 

Post Mon, Dec 10 2018, 3:28 am
dankbar wrote:
I once went to self growth course.... she was telling us how we can attract bracha in our life. How we open up our vessels to receive endless blessings from Hashem, to believe that he has enough & wants to give us. She told us to write down wht bracha we want in our life. I wrote zera shel kayama as I was suffering many years of infertility. Closed the binder & forgot about it. The next year she gave an advanced course. I arrived in maternity. The people asked me so you attracted the bracha you wanted in your life? Huh? I went to check what I wrote & found just exactly that. Unbelievable!


And pls tell me out of everyone in that class, how many ppl "got the bracha they wrote"??? I doubt it was many....anyway, I can see now why u believe in this miraculous ....bec it happened to u, well im happy for u that u got wat u wanted but most ppl in that class probably didnt. Bec if life is so "simple" such that u "just need to open yourself up for the bracha" then nobody would have suffering anymore.
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Surrendered




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 10 2018, 3:48 am
We all have a unique tafkid, something that we need to accomplish in this world. Hashem gives us the tools we need for that according to our mission. If we don't get what we want, it means that we don't Need it for our purpose down here. Though we want it badly.

I'm not saying that if you don't have money you don't need it. But for your higher purpose in life, you now need to go through this difficult Nisoyon.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 10 2018, 5:53 am
amother wrote:
Me and dh discuss this and argue/disagree. Its true that it seems tefila doesnt "work" which is why I never daven the "real tefilos" and dont ever say tehilim (my mom is always saying tehilim). Nobody ever explained the purpose of tehilim and I dont understand how those words would relate to me saying tehilim for a yeshua for xyz.

But, I do daven in english to ask hashem to help me manage my suffering and to ask for a yeshua. It definitely strengthens my connection to hashem. But, as im writing this, im realizing that I am in constant contradiction. Bec I know that I see "davening doesnt work" meaning that bec I see ppl are not getting answered and I know hashem has his plan...so too wen I daven for a yeshua, I dont really expect it to happen.(I dont want to be dissapointed again)But, im hoping for it. However, I do expect hashem to help me manage and he does, but im still suffering a lot.

.


When you daven in your own words - and don't let anyone tell you that's not valuable too, because it is - do you just say your bakasha or do you also include the shevach and hoda'a components?
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 10 2018, 5:55 am
amother wrote:
How do you know he listens and cares? If you can demonstrate this point, I would be very happy.


If we could demonstrate this, we'd probably not be in this world but the next.

If I believe in G-d, I believe in a Single G-d, Who is not petty, Who is perfect and good, and the Source of all good. Such a loving G-d listens and cares.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 10 2018, 5:57 am
dankbar wrote:
I once went to self growth course.... she was telling us how we can attract bracha in our life. How we open up our vessels to receive endless blessings from Hashem, to believe that he has enough & wants to give us. She told us to write down wht bracha we want in our life. I wrote zera shel kayama as I was suffering many years of infertility. Closed the binder & forgot about it. The next year she gave an advanced course. I arrived in maternity. The people asked me so you attracted the bracha you wanted in your life? Huh? I went to check what I wrote & found just exactly that. Unbelievable!


I'm not going to knock this mehalech. But I'll just say that it doesn't resonate for everyone.
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amother
Magenta


 

Post Mon, Dec 10 2018, 6:34 am
In Parshas V'eschanan, the Rabbis explain that Moshe Rabbeinu davened 515 times for the ability to go into Eretz Yisrael. Hashem stopped him from continuing to daven, that if he would've continued, He'd have been "forced" to answer it. We don't know exactly how tefillah works, but I definitely feel it has an impact on things in some shape or form, now or in the future.
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