DD has an OTD friend

amother

Aqua

Sat, Dec 15 2018, 12:23 pm

My 17-year-old is a good frum girl who davens 3 times a day, says tehillim, dresses very tzniusdigly, and listens to shiurim. She's also a friendly girl with good middos who accepts everyone no matter where they're holding in Yiddishkeit. Her school is a very mixed OOT-type school with chassidim, Litvish, and modern all studying together. She is friends with everyone and doesn't discriminate.

In the last couple of years, one of her classmates has been struggling with her Yiddishkeit and eventually left the school. For quite a while, she wasn't in any school and now is taking courses a couple of times a week somewhere. DD is still friendly with her and they speak on the phone a lot. Sometimes this girl comes over and I can see that she's now wearing shorts and very low necklines (showing cleavage), and when DD steps away from her for a couple of moments, I've seen her surfing on her smart phone.

This girl comes from a very frum family and her mother has thanked me for allowing my daughter to continue being friendly with her. She says that many others have not and that it means a lot to her daughter.

I do have concerns about her having a negative influence on my daughter, but I don't think I should be forcing her to break up the friendship. At this age, I think that would backfire. I also trust my daughter, but we're all human and we are affected by the people around us. I somehow think it's best to not make an issue out of it while somehow discreetly drawing a line. So when DD asks if she can go for 15-minute walk with her friend, I usually allow it, but when she asks if she can sleep over there, I can usually easily find a reason why she needs to be home. Sleeping over is beyond my comfort zone.

Just now, DD asked me if she could go to her friend's house to help her with math. That sounded innocent enough, but picturing the 2 of them in her friend's bedroom with the door closed, I had concerns about what else might go on there. Again, I trust my daughter, but this girl has her smartphone at her side and it takes seconds for her to pull something up and it would be hard for my daughter to protest.

What would be a good way to deal with this?

amother

Lime

Sat, Dec 15 2018, 4:17 pm

amother wrote:

If you truly trust your daughter, let her study with her friend. Also, stop lying about why she can’t sleepover. This might backfire and your daughter might start sneaking around. Her friend’s mother would likely be thrilled that your daughter can sleepover. Her friend’s family is frum and your daughter sounds smart and kind. She sees past what her friend does religiously and doesn’t care what others think. Your daughter has great middos. Show her you value this and trust her.

amother

Mint

Sat, Dec 15 2018, 6:09 pm

I had friends who were OTD when I was in high school. They smoked, I stood next to them, but never smoked with them. They went to the cinema and clubs, hung out with boys, etc without me, but when we were together we did something else. They wore trousers, I never did. I did read books I shouldn't have and listened to non Jewish music with them. They switched schools, I spent hours on the phone with them, I think I had a couple of sleepovers there too.
Then I went to sem and was still briefly in touch, came back, worked and got married, lived nearby for a while and would meet up for lunch regularly, several would come to us for shabbos Seuda (and then go out clubbing).
Stayed in touch for years, the only time they would go to a kosher restaurant was when I was going out with them.
I'm a chabad Shlucha, grew up on shlichus, and they just knew to not even ask me to go any place inappropriate or eat non kosher with them, I never even had to say I can't do that. We were genuinely friends.
If you truly trust your daughter, and see that the friendship is an equal one, where she feels she is a giver in the relationship instead of the one feeling on the back foot or needing to impress, then I would let her continue the friendship.

amother

Ivory

Sat, Dec 15 2018, 8:59 pm

My daughter had such a friend. That friend eventually came back and is like her family now. Definitely ehrlich.

I would constantly keep the line of communication open with DD and include in the discussions how she can help the girl get better.

I did that with DD years back. As an example, I remember DD saying her friend says she has the "need" to try EVERYTHING, no matter what. I told DD, who later repeated it to her friend, that I know someone who said the same thing and ended up addicted to drugs because he had to try it, then got divorced, messed up etc.. So messages like this, I think helped a lot in the end.

I remember that girl told DD why she wants to be OTD.. DD really helped her by discussing it with me casually and then deciding how to speak with her friend about it.

amother

Vermilion

Sat, Dec 15 2018, 9:34 pm

Always keep the lines of communication open with your daughter. Don’t make her feel like you would be upset or disappointed or angry if she wanted to tell you something or ask questions. If you ever notice your daughter starting to change, don’t be afraid to have an open talk with her, being as she will be 18 and an adult and she’ll have to have difficult conversations she may not want to but has to anyway.

You being nice to the girl and her mothers appreciation shows that both families are incredibly wonderful people and maybe your dd’s friend will see that. If she’s a real friend, she will no pressure your daughter into doing something questionable or outright wrong.

amother

Aqua

Sun, Dec 16 2018, 8:42 am

OP here. Thanks for all the replies and encouragement. It's interesting to see the different opinions on this.

DD and I have very open communication, but we've never talked about her friend's issues. We try hard to avoid loshon hora and there didn't seem to be any toeles in discussing it.

No matter who the friend is, she always asks me before going to study or spend time with someone, so I decide in each situation based on what seems right to me.

I've never had to lie to her about sleeping over. She's only asked twice and both times it really couldn't work out. Once she had an appointment very early the following morning, and the other time her friend's siblings were sick and I didn't want her there. I didn't have to make up any story and was happy to have a valid excuse at the time.

I did let her go last night but for a limited amount of time and I told her that I did not want her going online at all. She said that of course she wouldn't. She was back on time and I have no reason to believe that they weren't actually studying together while she was there.

I keep davening that Hashem should guide me to make the right decisions with her and that she should be a positive influence on her friend without being negatively influenced along the way.

amother

Aqua

Sun, Dec 16 2018, 9:12 am

PinkFridge wrote:

I second finding someone IRL to bounce this off of. Don't ask for a psak but an eitzah. Because presenting something as psak to an almost adult child, who had no input in the process, can backfire.

I think I will discuss this with an older friend who happens to be a rebbitzen.

I'm not sure if this is coming across in my posts, but I've never presented anything to my daughter as psak and don't intend to. I would be asking more for some guidance in how I should deal with it rather than turning it into an issue. It's been a total non-issue between us until now and I hope to keep it that way. I've almost always said yes when she wanted to do something with her friend. The only times I've said no were when she wanted to sleep over, and both times there were other very valid reasons that she couldn't. Even though my daughter knows that I've seen her friend and am aware of her current struggle, neither of us has ever mentioned it to each other. She's a teenager and has made responsible decisions until now, so I don't feel the need to do anything drastic. OTOH, I do feel like I need to be careful and tread wisely without appearing too meddling.

I hope I'm making sense.

amother

Aqua

Sun, Dec 16 2018, 9:17 am

amother wrote:

Your daughter is 17 which means she could start shidduchim next year. I think forbidding a sleepover is uncalled for at that age. You think in 2 years she'll ask you who to be friends with?
If your daughter is happy at home, has a good relationship with you and doesn't have issues with religion there isn't anything to worry about. If you forbid her to choose her friends she'll resent you.

As I've posted earlier, I have never forbade her from being friends with anyone and have no intention of doing so. That said, she does ask me before going out with any of her friends and she's never once complained if I've had to say no for any reason, no matter who the friend is. Sometimes (rarely) things just don't work out. So I do have some say in this, and while I generally give her a lot of freedom and allow her to make her own decisions, I do have the ability to limit her interactions with this friend if it's the right thing to do, and I'm trying to make the right choices as to when I should subtly say no to something. Again, without turning it into an issue.

PinkFridge

Sun, Dec 16 2018, 3:44 pm

amother wrote:

You actually sound like your head's on so straight carpenters line up to use you as a level. Seriously. I just thought I'd spell out the psak vs. guidance thing because one never knows.
Hatzlacha!