Faith against faith

FranticFrummie

Wed, Jan 02 2019, 9:06 am

That is going to be hard to prove in court, but if there was any way she could win I hope she'll sue for discrimination.

What just happened there (if it happened the way she said it did) is no less wrong than someone saying "no Jews" or "no Negroes".

Notsobusy

Wed, Jan 02 2019, 9:12 am

I don't know if you've heard of the store named in the article. They aren't a typical store, they sell mostly used clothing that was donated and some new clothing that was donated. Everything costs just a few dollars. They are a chessed organization more than a store.

To me it's like if a non-Jew would go into the bikur cholim room in a hospital and eat a good meal. The food is there for frum people who have a hard time finding kosher food to eat in a hospital, it's not there for anyone who's hungry to come eat. This "store" is "selling" donated items that were specifically donated for the frum community.

That being said, unless if it's becoming a real problem, with people walking in off the street every day, I don't think they should send tell non-Jewish people they can't shop there. To me the potential for chillul Hashem should override the fact that this clothing was donated for frum people.

DrMom

Wed, Jan 02 2019, 9:21 am

Does the store require membership? Or do you need to donate in order to shop there?

If not, it sounds like it should be open to everyone.

If a store wants to only serve Jewish clientele, I think that should be their prerogative (I also don't think bakers should have to bake cakes for gay weddings), but they should expect some blowback, and a loss of perfectly good customers.

Notsobusy

Wed, Jan 02 2019, 9:25 am

DrMom wrote:

They don't require membership and you don't need to donate in order to shop there. It's the opposite, people are donating so that people who can't afford to shop for themselves can shop there. They aren't looking for good customers, they would be thrilled if everyone had enough money that they could shop in any other store.

But yes, they should be open to everyone or expect some blowback. Or they may have to move back to a basement and out of a storefront if they don't want to deal with that.

FranticFrummie

Wed, Jan 02 2019, 9:29 am

It doesn't matter if it's a gemach/Goodwill/Oxfam shop. If it's on the main street and the doors are open, then it's open to the public. That's the law.

The simple solution is to lock the door, and put up a sign that says "By appointment only."

As a person who adores a good bargain, I would be appalled if a clerk demanded to know my religion, orientation, or ethnicity.

The only thing a clerk should be saying to a customer is "Can I help you find anything?" and "Thank you, have a nice day."

tweek

Wed, Jan 02 2019, 9:30 am

A chessed organization cannot legally say that they are only providing for jews. My guess (hope) is that it was a totally clueless worker and the store will do what they need to in order to fix this terrible mistake.

There are beautiful pictures and videos of masbia in Brooklyn feeding all types of people, regardless of their background. That is true chessed.

amother

Ruby

Wed, Jan 02 2019, 9:32 am

Notsobusy wrote:

There should be a way to serve Jewish clientele exclusively. I am disturbed because my local bikur cholim room is used by non-Jews. I go to the hospital twice a week. I see non-jewish hospital workers coming in and helping themselves to free meals.

amother

Ruby

Wed, Jan 02 2019, 9:35 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

You aren't correct.

Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 generally prohibits any sort of employment discrimination based on relations, race, national origin, or religion. However, there is a notable exception to the rule: religious organizations are allowed to discriminate on the basis of their religion.

Religious Organization's Right to Discriminate | LegalMatch Law ...

amother

Lawngreen

Wed, Jan 02 2019, 9:40 am

amother wrote:

Isn't that for employment purposes, which makes a lot of sense. Does it apply to whom you offer services too?

amother

Lawngreen

Wed, Jan 02 2019, 9:43 am

amother wrote:

If it were reverse, and you'd see a non-profit organization offering something (other than food, let's say free pampers & baby supplies) to only Catholic or Christian mothers, would you still feel the same?

Simple1

Wed, Jan 02 2019, 9:48 am

First of all, she didn't actually kick her out, maybe more like hinted that this store is not for outsiders. Not saying it was the best thing to do.

To be DLKZ, this is likely a store worker who used poor judgement when caught off guard -and it's not necessarily store policy. I would guess that they should not exclude people, just as Hatazalah has to service everyone as well.

amother

Ruby

Wed, Jan 02 2019, 9:49 am

amother wrote:

Of course I would be ok unless they were breaking the law.

tweek

Wed, Jan 02 2019, 9:54 am

amother wrote:

Why are you disturbed by this? I think it's a great way for workers to see jews in a positive light. Bikur cholim puts in a lot of effort into keeping good PR and connections with hospitals and doctors. A few danishes are just a small part of it.

amother

Ruby

Wed, Jan 02 2019, 10:02 am

tweek wrote:

It's not a few danishes. The staff comes in and sits at the one table. They eat sandwiches and have coffee. Is it fair when there is no kosher food left?

Other hospitals have a Shabbos lock to get in.

tweek

Wed, Jan 02 2019, 10:04 am

amother wrote:

I hear, but I still think it's a small price to pay for establishing a good relationship.

Amarante

Wed, Jan 02 2019, 10:35 am

amother wrote:

Do you run the room? I ask because it is very likely that the room's organizers are fine with staff eating the food. Many people bring hospital workers food or other small gifts to thank them for their service. If this is not the intention of the group running the room, it would be up to them to take steps to ensure there is enough food for those who need the kosher food and aren't just being shnorrers.

As for the store, you can't run a public business and exclude people based on ethnicity or religion or nationality etc. That is the most basic aspect of the Civil Rights Act which was really intended to make sure that stores, theaters, restaurants etc. did not refuse service to people. The exception for religious beliefs is very narrow - it has to be related to the specific religious holdings. For example, a Catholic hospital that serves the public can't refuse to hire non-Catholic doctors or nurses but a Catholic school could only hire Catholics to teach religion. The exemption for the baker was very narrow and would not permit him to refuse to sell cakes to anyone but a Mormon or a Pentecostal which is what this store was attempting to enforce.

finprof

Wed, Jan 02 2019, 10:39 am

Sure I can believe it happened. People often speak without thinking of the consequences! Also, the customer probably had no idea and truly doesn't understand the difference between tznius and Xtian modesty rules.

Ruby: Why not put up a sign explaining that the food is intended for kosher patients and families who can't eat the food in the cafeteria but is also made available as charity from the Jewish community for those who can't afford to eat in the cafeteria?