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Forum
-> Relationships
-> Manners & Etiquette
amother
Chartreuse
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Mon, Jan 07 2019, 2:41 pm
I've had to make several shiva calls recently, and observed some pretty awful things.
DO NOT ASK WHAT HAPPENED. This is particularly true if the person is not of an age to have died of natural causes. If the mourner wants you to know, he'll tell you. But it otherwise might be too painful for him to discuss. Or he might not want you to know. Anyway, you're there to comfort the mourner, not to gather intelligence for gossip.
KEEP YOUR ATTENTION ON THE MOURNER. Even if you discover that the person sitting next to you is the first cousin of your nieces' fiance. If you feel the need to talk to him, excuse yourself from the room. Unless, of course, the mourner has clearly signaled that the discussion is interesting and brings her comfort.
DO NOT TELL THE MOURNER YOU ALREADY HEARD THAT STORY. Maybe its his favorite story. Maybe he wants everyone who comes to hear it. If its your 3rd go-round with the story, maybe its just time to leave.
May we only know simchas.
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amother
White
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Mon, Jan 07 2019, 2:55 pm
Yep, all of that. Particularly the first one. I hear it a lot, and experienced it personally. If I had money for everyone who asked "Was he sick?" Or "was it sudden?"
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amother
Mint
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Mon, Jan 07 2019, 3:16 pm
Worst things that I have actually seen -
-Barging in without assessing the mood and starting to talk about stuff like how hard it was to get a parking space or what happened to you in traffic on the way
-Arguing with the mourners about whether the treatment they opted for in the final days was appropriate
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amother
Cerise
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Mon, Jan 07 2019, 3:21 pm
How about...
Can someone make me a coffee?
Can I have some food? I'm hungry..as all of us aveilim were eating and talking...
And not showing up at 11 pm when we are falling flat on outl face and begging for a bed
Or sitting and talking and talking and talking non stop...
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amother
Blue
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Mon, Jan 07 2019, 3:25 pm
Can I add?
Listen more, talk less.
Only come if you have a relationship with the mourner.
(It makes the mourner feel awkward if they have nothing to say to you, a personal email or letter is a nice gesture.)
Keep the visit to no more than a few minutes (unless you're close to the mourner).
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SixOfWands
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Mon, Jan 07 2019, 3:31 pm
amother wrote: | Can I add?
Listen more, talk less.
Only come if you have a relationship with the mourner.
(It makes the mourner feel awkward if they have nothing to say to you, a personal email or letter is a nice gesture.)
Keep the visit to no more than a few minutes (unless you're close to the mourner). |
This is a YMMV thing.
When my friend a sibling, her family was greatly comforted by the sibling's many friends, most of whom they had never met, but were able to speak about how wonderful the sibling was.
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thunderstorm
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Mon, Jan 07 2019, 3:33 pm
I have a problem that I rarely could control. When I go to be menachem avel , I usually start crying and I sit there with my tissues. I feel so stupid each time. I go to bring comfort and instead I'm the one crying over the loss while the aveilim are not. Should I rather not go?
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amother
Linen
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Mon, Jan 07 2019, 3:36 pm
Delete
Last edited by amother on Mon, Feb 11 2019, 5:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Chayalle
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Mon, Jan 07 2019, 3:40 pm
The worst I ever heard was when someone came in and proceeded to lecture the Aveilim that the person (a young father, husband, brother, and son) was niftar because of a specific sin (in this case it was L"H).
We don't have nevuah in our times, and the speaker was very harsh.
At the levayah of a friend of mine's mother, a speaker went on and on about tznius, and how this is why this person suffered and was gone. It was so inappropriate to turn someone else's pain into a personal platform.
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amother
Linen
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Mon, Jan 07 2019, 3:42 pm
Delete
Last edited by amother on Mon, Feb 11 2019, 5:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Chartreuse
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Mon, Jan 07 2019, 3:48 pm
Chayalle wrote: | The worst I ever heard was when someone came in and proceeded to lecture the Aveilim that the person (a young father, husband, brother, and son) was niftar because of a specific sin (in this case it was L"H).
We don't have nevuah in our times, and the speaker was very harsh.
At the levayah of a friend of mine's mother, a speaker went on and on about tznius, and how this is why this person suffered and was gone. It was so inappropriate to turn someone else's pain into a personal platform. |
OK. I would have seriously gone postal if anyone had said anything like that at the shivas I referred to.
If you don't have two brain cells to rub together, stay home.
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amother
Aqua
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Mon, Jan 07 2019, 3:49 pm
thunderstorm wrote: | I have a problem that I rarely could control. When I go to be menachem avel , I usually start crying and I sit there with my tissues. I feel so stupid each time. I go to bring comfort and instead I'm the one crying over the loss while the aveilim are not. Should I rather not go? |
No. That's fine.
Signed, amother who has sat shiva
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amother
Bronze
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Mon, Jan 07 2019, 3:51 pm
My sibling just lost a young child. I sat there with her all day to support her and care for her other kids. 2 women that she has no idea who they are walked in and said "we also lost kids so we go be menachem avel who ever we hear lost a child." And they proceeded to cry themselves out with their stories and left! My sister n law felt like 2 sense!
If you dont know the people sitting, please don't go be menachem them!
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amother
Chartreuse
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Mon, Jan 07 2019, 3:53 pm
thunderstorm wrote: | I have a problem that I rarely could control. When I go to be menachem avel , I usually start crying and I sit there with my tissues. I feel so stupid each time. I go to bring comfort and instead I'm the one crying over the loss while the aveilim are not. Should I rather not go? |
It depends.
I'd be a little confused if you showed up at the shiva for a relative of mine you'd never met, and started bawling.
And I really wouldn't want to have to comfort you, if it wasn't someone you were close to.
OTOH, if its someone who was like a mother to you, or a close friend, it makes sense.
IMNSHO, don't go at "slow" times when you may be the only caller, and sit towards the back until you're in control.
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amother
Babypink
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Mon, Jan 07 2019, 3:54 pm
Chayalle wrote: | The worst I ever heard was when someone came in and proceeded to lecture the Aveilim that the person (a young father, husband, brother, and son) was niftar because of a specific sin (in this case it was L"H). |
On the same vein (but maybe even worse), when I was sitting shiva for my husband, one of my younger DD's teacher's came and told her that when a girl loses a parent abnormally young as she had, she needs to ask herself how she might have improved her tznius. My older DD is the kind of girl who would have known that teacher was an idiot, but younger DD is a very sincere little girl (whose tznius is just fine, btw). She always took life very seriously, and this really bothered her. I have never forgiven that teacher.
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amother
Orchid
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Mon, Jan 07 2019, 3:57 pm
Oh. My. G-d. Babypink. I have no words.
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amother
Blue
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Mon, Jan 07 2019, 3:57 pm
SixOfWands wrote: | This is a YMMV thing.
When my friend a sibling, her family was greatly comforted by the sibling's many friends, most of whom they had never met, but were able to speak about how wonderful the sibling was. |
You're correct, I should have said: only come if you have a relationship with the mourner or knew the deceased family member.
What does YMMN stand for?
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amother
Babypink
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Mon, Jan 07 2019, 3:58 pm
I have sat shiva a lot in the past few years. I think if I could say one thing, it would be to allow the avel to lead things. If they talk, you answer. If they don't, you sit in companionable silence. Unless you are close, don't ask questions. Don't stay too long and if the avel literally won't recognize you, you should ask a close friend of the avel before coming. As several peole have said, different people want different things, and , again, the avel leads.
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amother
Linen
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Mon, Jan 07 2019, 3:58 pm
Delete
Last edited by amother on Mon, Feb 11 2019, 5:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Babypink
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Mon, Jan 07 2019, 4:05 pm
amother wrote: | Oh. My. G-d. Babypink. I have no words. |
Me either. The one time I ran into her some time after I could barely say hello.
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