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Shaking hands with men at an interview
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naturalmom5




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 10 2019, 11:14 am
amother wrote:
I don't agree with your analogy here. Using a ladies room has no relation to anyone else, and hugging and kissing is considered to be entering someone else's space and forging personal connections. And a handshake is considered to be a professional act, or sealing a business deal. While this may not hold true everywhere, it is the general view in the United States.

Not hugging or kissing is understood by most, but refusing handshake is not understood by many, especially those that aren't in frequent contact with Orthodox Jews. Very often, it leaves the person embarrassed, offended or bad impression.

I'm not saying you should go against your beliefs, halacha, comfort areas, or your Rav's psak. I'm just saying trying to rationalize it by using faulty analogies or pretending the negative impacts of it doesn't exist, weakens the impact of your stance.


THANK YOU......

This is exactly what I was trying to say, but you were a thousand times more eloquent and succinct than me, and expressed yourself perfectly....
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Chayalle




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 10 2019, 11:20 am
amother wrote:
I don't agree with your analogy here. Using a ladies room has no relation to anyone else, and hugging and kissing is considered to be entering someone else's space and forging personal connections. And a handshake is considered to be a professional act, or sealing a business deal. While this may not hold true everywhere, it is the general view in the United States.

Not hugging or kissing is understood by most, but refusing handshake is not understood by many, especially those that aren't in frequent contact with Orthodox Jews. Very often, it leaves the person embarrassed, offended or bad impression.

I'm not saying you should go against your beliefs, halacha, comfort areas, or your Rav's psak. I'm just saying trying to rationalize it by using faulty analogies or pretending the negative impacts of it doesn't exist, weakens the impact of your stance.


I had a high school teacher who told us she grew up in the South. Using different bathrooms was very much a social issue. It may not be the best analogy, but my point is, men can be offended by many areas where a woman may want to keep separate. My POV is that it does not obligate me as a woman, just because it may offend a man.

The negative impacts of no hand-shaking may exist, I just don't consider them to me my problem once I have done my best to be polite, friendly, professional, and courteous - verbally.
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naturalmom5




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 10 2019, 11:29 am
We are over-lapping with the SAHM thread here and others a bit..

I am living in Lakewood long enough, to have seen numerous times, it all depends on the money.

Chayalle, I give you a brocha that you will always be financially comfortable enough to maintain your ideals..
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ShishKabob




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 10 2019, 11:35 am
naturalmom5 wrote:
We are over-lapping with the SAHM thread here and others a bit..

I am living in Lakewood long enough, to have seen numerous times, it all depends on the money.

Chayalle, I give you a brocha that you will always be financially comfortable enough to maintain your ideals..

On my other post I was going to inject a line and ask if compromising halacha is ok if there's money involved. Of course, it depends on how much money. I'm being sarcastic here.

So basically, it's never easy sticking to your guns when it hurts. That's why if you want to know if someone is genuine you see if they put their money where their mouth is.

I don't know if I would be able to overcome the nesayon of Shomer Shabbos in the 1920's in American where it's easier said than done to keep on getting fired every week for not showing up on Shabbos. I don't think it's comparable to shaking hands though. I think it's way easier to refuse to shake hands than to be in utter poverty like those people were at the risk of being.
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amother




Salmon


Post  Thu, Jan 10 2019, 11:40 am
Chayalle wrote:
I had a high school teacher who told us she grew up in the South. Using different bathrooms was very much a social issue. It may not be the best analogy, but my point is, men can be offended by many areas where a woman may want to keep separate. My POV is that it does not obligate me as a woman, just because it may offend a man.

The negative impacts of no hand-shaking may exist, I just don't consider them to me my problem once I have done my best to be polite, friendly, professional, and courteous - verbally.


I've not said your stance is incorrect, I've just pointed out that your rationalizations of it is incorrect.

Every society, every circle is different. I just believe that people should take everything into consideration, instead of pretending something is non-existent or try to rationalize it away. If you're frequently in circles where your verbal explanations and preemptive tactics work well, then great. But if not, don't rationalize it away. Acknowledge it, and then discuss it with your husband/Rav/Rabbi/learned person how to handle it all.

I don't believe everyone will get the same psak. There are so many different situations and judging others is so wrong. (Even more so, is coming down on people that this halacha is absolute for everyone.)

I'm an RN. My job is to put people at ease before they strip down and don that medical gown. Telling a person that I can't shake your hands, but I can put my hands on your backside or change his diaper generally doesn't come across well. And during the initial interview stage, I need the patient to feel most comfortable so that he can include all relevant information including the most intimate ones. Creating a chasm, even if its a minor one, puts a spoke into that wheel.

That's one situation. Then there's situations where financial deals are sealed via handshake, or a positive image is crucial and so on.....

Bottom line, your stance can be correct and someone else's stance can be right too.
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imasoftov




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 10 2019, 1:18 pm
Chayalle wrote:
I use the ladies room, is that discriminatory?

My shul has separate bathrooms on the ground floor but when they turned the basement into usable space (originally it was unfinished and locked off until we raised more money for that) they built a unisex there. Two rooms with doors that lock, no urinals. My only criticism is sometimes they forget to turn on the lights inside the rooms before Shabbat and it gets dark in there.
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Chayalle




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 10 2019, 1:21 pm
naturalmom5 wrote:
We are over-lapping with the SAHM thread here and others a bit..

I am living in Lakewood long enough, to have seen numerous times, it all depends on the money.

Chayalle, I give you a brocha that you will always be financially comfortable enough to maintain your ideals..


Amen. Thank you.

The bolded, ain't it the truth. Can't say I have always been financially comfortable, but "enough" is the key word here....Smile
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Chayalle




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 10 2019, 1:28 pm
imasoftov wrote:
My shul has separate bathrooms on the ground floor but when they turned the basement into usable space (originally it was unfinished and locked off until we raised more money for that) they built a unisex there. Two rooms with doors that lock, no urinals. My only criticism is sometimes they forget to turn on the lights inside the rooms before Shabbat and it gets dark in there.


Glad that works for you. Others are less comfortable. I happen to have been involved in the renovation plans of the shul in my former neighborhood, and with limited funds, they did something similar in the Simcha Hall area. It's a temporary situation - there's space for separate bathrooms but no funds. We got plenty of comments about it - it's not the most comfortable situation.
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amother




Vermilion


Post  Thu, Jan 10 2019, 1:49 pm
amother wrote:

Bottom line, your stance can be correct and someone else's stance can be right too.


Wish this concept was taught in every school from a very young age. It applies to so much of conflict.
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little neshamala




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 10 2019, 1:55 pm
So I had this issue come up more and more recently in my line of work. And its a problem.
So I asked my (quite yeshivish, big posek) Rav what to do.
His answer surprised me.

He said I should try my best not to shake hands if possible. But if its a situation where it would cause discomfort and embarassment, like when all of a sudden you have a hand in front of you and the situation isnt allowing you to easily explain that you cant shake hands, then I should shake . He made it clear I shouldnt offer, and I should try my best to explain, while keeping a comfortable environment. But when thats not possible I should just shake.
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SacN




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 10 2019, 1:57 pm
Quote:
It may be less important for some jobs or some organizations but I think it is naive to think that it would have no potential impact. While people might "respect" the person, they might not want to bring in someone they feel as being so "rigid" in certain workplaces


This is the only situation I shake hands in, and only when I read the situation accordingly. Otherwise, I say sorry, no.

I live in Israel. The advantage is that people know the concept, the disadvantage is that there is blatant discrimination against religious women (who have babies too often) and especially charedi women (who mooch off the government and don't allow busses on shabbos and don't send their sons to the army.)
Yes, I've seen it firsthand.

I used to not shake. I rarely do still. But sometimes, I'd rather be seen as the professional that I am than the stereotype they think they know. My husband's Rosh Yeshiva says without a doubt, if it's not Derech chiba, it's acceptable on a one - off basis.
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