S/O excuse... Americans vs. Israelis

Fox

Wed, Jan 09 2019, 9:35 am

chanchy123 wrote:

Americans are hoarders, many of them shop way too much, having a lot of space means you just never git rid of things or have an incentive to think before you shop.

I wonder if another factor might be historical. I would assume that the majority of Israelis have parents, grandparents, or great-grandparents who made aliyah for various reasons. They probably arrived in Israel with little, and since Israeli consumer culture is more recent, they likely didn't accumulate too much.

Meanwhile, I have "stuff" from my great-grandparents, grandparents, and parents -- and I'm working to unload it onto my kids. Nothing so valuable that it makes sense to hold on to it, but nevertheless with enough family history or sentimental value that it makes it hard to toss out.

And, as you say, when space is not at a premium, there's not the incentive to be ruthless with one's discards.

It will be interesting to see if Israelis are as minimalistic a few generations down the road. My guess is that space considerations will still play a huge factor, but they'll have accumulated a lot more stuff than is typical now.

amother

Violet

Wed, Jan 09 2019, 9:50 am

Generalizations often have a core of truth. There is no denying the fact that there are general cultural differences.

My parents were immigrants to North America, they came with literally nothing (one of them from Israel) and after 30 years their home was almost as cluttered as most Americans'. It's a mentality. I think some of it has to do with the weather. Cozy and overdone homes seem 'warmer' in cold climates, and just a dusty headache in hot climes.
The general decor sensibility here leans toward spartan. People also like to be able to clean easily. That said, lately there is a proliferation of cheapo home stores here, and some Israelis have become addicted to MaxStock and its ilk, filling their home with junk.

Also as people are becoming more interested in decor, minimalism is making space for other styles too.
Still, Israelis (esp Moroccans and Yemenites) prioritize the spanking clean look over the lived-in look some olim seem to favor.

SacN

Wed, Jan 09 2019, 10:16 am

I feel like all you people talking about tiny spaces and less materialism don't know my (Israeli) coworkers.
I don't know what their homes look like, but secular Israelis love stuff. They complain about their wives' shopping habits and talk where to find sales and what to get online for black Friday. They own the perfect everything for their kids, including 2-3 strollers. They cherish vacation (and vacation shopping) like nothing I've ever seen.

It wasn't always like this, when my mother in law grew up here she didn't even have hot water when it wasn't sunny out (just those big black duds warmed by the sun). Bikes were for the rich kids. Etc.
Maybe that's why she made yerida.

But Israelis are all types. Some homes are spotless, some disgusting.

chanchy123

Wed, Jan 09 2019, 10:29 am

My IL's family have been in Israel since the turn of the last century.
They do have tons of nick nacks and art, silver, antiques etc. Things they collected in their travels, inheritance, gifts and more. However their house is spotless and the opposite of cluttered and easy to clean.

It's not that most American Jews came to America on the Mayflower, they are maybe one generation behind most Israelis.

Of course these are generlizations. There are many large homes in Israel (I grew up in a large home) but relatively speaking, homes are smaller here.
I wonder if people living in Manhattan, for instance, have similar habits as Israeli city dwellers.
I don't understand though the concept that I keep seeing here that Israelis are spartan munk like people.
It's seems like all the Israelis you guys know are a very specific brand of chareidim.

etky

Wed, Jan 09 2019, 10:31 am

Fox wrote:

Also, I think that the stuff that Israelis do acquire now is not the type of stuff that gets past down from one generation to the next. Rather, it is the type of goods that one throws away when they are no longer usable or go out of fashion: clothing, shoes, kitchen gadgets, electronics, phones, etc. Even furniture is more affordable and made much more cheaply now (hello Ikea...) and is no longer the kind that one buys to last a lifetime and hand down to the kids. Neither do people tend to spend huge sums on fancy china + silver (do people still do that in the States?)
OTOH space is at a premium and will continue to be so - even more - as the population b"h increases and there is less land to build on in the desirable cities. It's not like there's going to be an explosion of huge Mcmansions here with attics, basements and double garages any time soon....
Another point - Israelis also spend a good part of their disposable incomes on foreign travel which has also become much more accessible. This is a small crowded country and Israelis feel cooped up. It's a real priority for many people.

Shuly

Wed, Jan 09 2019, 1:05 pm

I've lived in 4 different apt. buildings in Israel with a mix of American and Israeli families - both sefardi and ashkenazi.
The Israelis' apartments were always spotless. There were 3 Americans over the years who also had spotless apartments but the rest were way more cluttered than the Israelis.

The Israelis wash their floors every night. The Americans wash once a week.
The Israelis have very few toys compared to the Americans who easily have a closet just for toys.
The Israelis don't keep much clothing from kid to kid. unless they have a machsan to store it in.
The Israelis don't have piles of papers, random chatchkes and pens lying around, like the Americans do.
Many of the Israelis had much less furniture - no rugs, no side tables, no heavy curtains, maybe a desk in their kids room but it is empty.

Israelis love the empty, clean look and prioritize that.

Jewishmom8

Wed, Jan 09 2019, 11:13 pm

Shuly wrote:

I agree with the above after living in 4 different buildings over 20 years and visiting lots of friends.
Americans here just have much more stuff.
I don't think that cleaning all day is my ideal, I would rather hang out with my kids and its not my nature. BUT I do think that I have a lot to learn from my very wonderful Israeli neighbors.

salt

Thu, Jan 10 2019, 12:06 am

This might be a completely wrong generalization, I'm mainly going by what I see on imamother, but I think it's more common in America to have cleaning help - it's considered a necessity, rather than a luxury. People do do it themselves but they're the minority.
In Israel the default is to do the cleaning yourself. Even if both parents are out the house.
You muddle by - the older kids help more, etc.
As to which houses are tidier, I don't know any American houses so I don't know.

moonstone

Thu, Jan 10 2019, 1:38 am

I think Israelis just prioritize cleaning more than Americans (as long as we're making generalizations that have many exceptions). I've been in many Israeli homes that have lots of chotchkes and stuff-- but everything is dusted and clean. They are more the "cleaning freak" type than Americans and feel the need to clean more often (again, generalizing!) And I actually think it's more common in Israel to have a cleaner. So many people I know, across the economic spectrum, have a cleaner-- in most families here, both parents work and don't a lot of free time to clean. But even the Israelis with cleaners still seem to do a lot of cleaning! I guess it's a cultural thing. One that I haven't really internalized. Very Happy

I can't keep the pervasive Israeli dust at bay (it really is duster here than in the US) but I don't obsess over it, to put it mildly.

Israeli_C

Thu, Jan 10 2019, 3:34 am

As someone who grew up in Europe and now lives in Israel, when I think of an 'American home' I think biiiiiiig. Excessively so. Basements. Massive fridges. Huge washing machines which open from above. Oversized furniture (especially beds). I never understood how someone with so much stuff could keep it all clean. No wonder there are so many threads about cleaning help from US based Imas! I think it's only obvious Israelis would have cleaner homes. Simply because there's less to clean. To me, Israeli size is 'normal'.

rzab

Thu, Jan 10 2019, 4:04 am

ally wrote:

My husband was once at the supermarket (in Israel) buying a bottle of bleach. The lady at the checkout told him, the second one is half price. He said - we don’t go through it that fast (and of course did not have much storage) so he would just skip the special.
She looks at him and says: You need to clean more.

This story made me laugh. So classic

mommy3b2c

Thu, Jan 10 2019, 4:22 am

Israeli_C wrote:

I personally think it’s a lot easier to clean a big home then a small home. I recently moved from a 1400 sq ft apartment to a 2400 sq ft house. I am having a much easier time keeping my house neat. I used to have 14 hours of cleaning help and now I’m down to 4 and my house is still neater on a daily basis.

amother

Violet

Thu, Jan 10 2019, 4:28 am

mommy3b2c wrote:

I agree. In a smallish house, for example, you don't have a designated area to dump all the piles of clean laundry that need folding, and you might end up putting them on the living room couch, or being stressed out and always folding right away. In a big house, there is usually a corner or area for laundry, far away from the public areas.

Things like shoes and knapsacks make a lot more of a mess in a smaller place than in a big one.

amother

Seashell

Thu, Jan 10 2019, 8:53 am

This is a really interesting thread to read as a North American considering Aliyah in the next year. Our house now is way too big, with extra nooks and crannies that are just begging to collect junk. I feel like I am constantly engaged in "stuff management." I'm actually looking forward to a more spare existence. But also not sure whether I'll be able to live up to my own dreams in that regard. I hope so.