Son had a fight in school

amother

Cerulean

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 10:25 am

amother wrote:

Everything in life has its time. And sometimes, though rarely, violence is needed. All these niceties about giving the kids tools how to handle it, generally works well only in the early stages of bullying. Once the lines have been drawn, these tools are usually equal to bringing a knife to a gun battle. The stakes are much higher and it takes so much more to get the bully to back down.

At this point, when bullying has gone on for some time, the poor kid needs to know and feel that his pain & suffering is understood and whatever it takes to get the bully to stop, will be done. The first 3 tactics are soft-balling it, and it's all too late for it. Those have a chance of working if the bullying is caught in the early stages, or if, even better, it has been given to the child prior to the start of any bullying

Furthermore, what happens when a long-time bullied child does try to use his words or the ignoring tactic and it fails? It only worsens the situation, he now feels like a failure too.

When a child's self esteem is being shredded bit by bit and it may take a lifetime to glue it all back together, then that's a time for some really tough action. Our policemen are trained to use nonviolent tactics to diffuse situations, but are given the go ahead to resort to violence to take down a dangerous criminal, imo, the same situation applies. All children should be taught the skills how to handle such situations, but if a situation has gone far enough that its literally killing the child from the inside out, then a good punch to the face of that dangerous bully or some mighty arm twisting is in full order.

If a child doesn't possess the self control or character to avoid torturing another person, maybe the memory of that black and blue mark or painful shiner will do that for him.

Perhaps you missed the part about the fact that the child who was punched had only used the offending work once. Perhaps he had bullied other people; we don't know. But this was WORD -- PUNCH.

Chayalle

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 10:25 am

amother wrote:

But always remember that the verbal bullies want something from you, and that's a reaction. If you don't give it, then they move on. Me, I always gave the reaction, so I was always taunted and bullied. So I taught my kids that, no matter how much it hurts inside, show nothing. And that worked for them.

Physical assault is, of course, different; you cannot just ignore.

This.

I'm surprised how many parents think it's okay for their child to physically assault another child.

I think a child who physically hurts another child is liable to get into serious trouble. For that alone, I've taught my kids that we keep our hands to ourselves.

I once had a neighbor whose son was very physical and he went around hurting other kids in the neighborhood. The woman had an afternoon job, and the husband was not doing a very good job watching his kids. The son would go out and wait for DD's bus, and when she came off he hit her with a stick, or chased her, etc...

I let them know that if this continued, I would be finding out what I'm allowed to do re: reporting them for not properly supervising their child. The bullying stopped.

I feel bad for OP's kid, but I think punching another child will likely get him into MORE trouble.

ShishKabob

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 10:28 am

Till this child learns to successfully ignore or work on a good retort that'll shut the other boy up, this is his only coping mechanism. And he can't feel helpless or hopeless. That's why.
It doesn't sound good on paper though, but I think it's called real life.
I'm approaching this with the thought that this child is generally well behaved and is not a physically violent child. It's only when he is being tortured and taunted that he responds this way because he has no other effective tool to deal with it.

Last edited by ShishKabob on Mon, Jan 14 2019, 10:31 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Forestgreen

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 10:31 am

Op, I agree not to punish ur son. Ur son needs to see u defend him to the principal. How can the school say hes wrong to defend himself if the school did nothing for him. Especially at this time, ur son needs to know he has ur support wen he's feeling all the negative feelings from the bullying. Punishing bully with losing some recess sends the message that the school doesn't take bullying as a serious violation, but who knows the damages of the bullys words,vs a punch?? Why didn't they call meeting for bullys parents previously??

To u posters who are saying that ops son shouldn't use violence, I'm wondering if ur kids were ever bullied by powerful ppls sons. My dd was bullied by the board members dd and I documented everything and spoke to the teachers/principal....and the school did involve the social worker. But, just like in real life, there are consequences like for being absent from work too much, one may be fired or....so too all the social workers sessions meant nothing for the bully if she got no real consequences. I also wrote letters to the bullys parents anonymously how their dd is ruining my dds life....but the bullying continued.

I regret not teaching my dd to hit back because wen she did defend herself finally, she got in trouble and they called us to a meeting claiming to discuss the issue but kicked her out. But, in the new school (which was,very hard to get her into) the first time she was bullied, she knew wat to do to put an end to it.

In real life, all the anti bullying laws are just words but noone enforces real consequences and then the victims sometimes want to kill their bullies. I like the way one poster said it "verbal violence" should not be tolerated and it can also lead to death, suicide of the victim or in NYC the victim killed the bully.

So far, public schools,and private schools both have no solution and have bullying problems.

But, I challenge anyone here who says dont tell ur child to punch or hit BAC or...pls tell me a solution that actually works. (dont tell me to switch schools bec that's not solving the problem but running from it, and there's bullying in most schools.).

amother

Floralwhite

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 10:32 am

I don't think violence is the solution. That being said your son should be taught how to cope when people call him names.

What I teach my kids is to never defend themselves to a bully but instead answer in a way that will completely confuse and silence the bully:

example: you're stupid
answer: hmmm yes I guess I could use some help in math but I'm getting a tutor so hopefully things will look up in the future

The bully is looking for a reaction or for a confrontation. If you don't give it to him, he'll be speechless.

Next time someone calls your son fat, teach him to answer "I know. I'm working on losing some pounds though. Any tips?" What can the bully answer to that?

amother

Emerald

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 10:34 am

I believe the official, legal definition for bullying is repeated behavior when the person being bullied has verbally said words to the effect of "stop, I don't like it when you say/call me that/ do that behavior to me" -- if it is not a repeated offense, or if the kid being picked on has not verbally asked the other one to stop, legally it is not considered bullying.
chayalle makes a good point that a physical response may get the child being bothered in trouble...I am sure there are legal precedents somewhere, where a parent tried to sue another based on this....

amother

Cerulean

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 10:39 am

ShishKabob wrote:

So let me ask you the following.

BULLY taunts VICTIM throughout the year. The school puts discipline in place, and the situation abates.

However, YOUR CHILD, once, taunts the VICTIM. YOUR CHILD has never been reprimanded for bullying, and has never been involved in another incident. VICTIM, at the urging of her parents, punches YOUR CHILD in the face, resulting in a cracked front tooth and a black eye.

Are you OK with this? Without excusing YOUR CHILD's behavior.

amother

Papaya

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 10:40 am

amother wrote:

Agreeing in a confusing way has worked in my experience too.

For example:
Fatso!
I know, I am a fatso. My mother's a fatso, my father's a fatso, my whole family is. You should see my baby, she's the fattest one of all.

Your shoes are so weird.
I know! I really wanted the weirdest shoes so I looked everywhere until I found them. I'm so happy you agree with me.

This takes a lot of role playing until the child is able to see it confidently. It truly works for some kids though.

ShishKabob

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 10:44 am

amother wrote:

If you read what I posted before, I was approaching this as a child that is generally well behaved. So, calling someone a fatso is very painful even if it happens once. If the victim gave the bully a punch once, it's also only once.

That being said, usually a parent will try to encourage the victim to ignore the bully. I'm assuming the physical part was not the first step in the story.

I think that mothers of older boys that have been in the system lean more toward the physical reaction, while mothers that have no experience in this area lean more towards the other approach. Because even if it's not politically correct or 'nice' boys deal with things differently.

amother

Cerulean

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 10:47 am

ShishKabob wrote:

The OP very clearly stated that her son punched someone who only called him FATSO once. Previous incidents involved a different child.

I'm not OK with violence being the first resort to any problem.

And my oldest son is 22, FTR.

abound

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 10:48 am

amother wrote:

NOT. WITH. BOYS.

Chayalle

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 10:48 am

amother wrote:

It really works, though.

One of my DD's was once in a very bullying kind of class (lots going on. There was a class bully, and then a number of copycat bullies, which often happens in that kind of climate.)

We worked with DD to build her up and help her think of humorous retorts.

At one point, there was a class Shabbos in our neighborhood, and DD was being one of the hostesses. One of the copycat bullies said no one should go to DD's house, because it's so tiny, they will likely be sleeping on the kitchen table.

DD's response: That's a great idea! We were trying to figure out where we would put everyone, but didn't think of that! I think with blankets and pillows piled on, it could really work!

Bullying fell flat. Class was roaring with laughter....

ShishKabob

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 10:55 am

I don't propose physical violence of any sort. Of course ignoring a bully is more effective and a sharp retort also. However, we are speaking about someone that doesn't have the coping skills yet, or they are in training to get those coping skills.
It's interesting to see everyone's response here. Of course I'm bringing my own history and perspective into this as well as my experience with my own children.
I still am of the opinion that verbal bullying is more painful than physical bullying. Either way, it's dead wrong and has to be effectively dealt with and stopped.

amother

Babyblue

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 12:14 pm

amother wrote:

What can the bully answer?
"Ha Ha Ha - Only SOME pounds!!??!! You need to lose a LOT!!!! - (guffawing some more)."

I guess you've never dealt with a real mean bully. Some of them are very quick on their feet and have retorts ready at a moments notice.

amother

Cerulean

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 12:25 pm

amother wrote:

I would never advocate a retort. That's still a reaction.

The shutdown response is no response.

I'm not shifting responsibility to the victim. The bullying is still wrong. Nor am I blaming any victim for reacting. Its hard not to.

I'm simply recommending a coping mechanism.

amother

Forestgreen

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 1:07 pm

Chayalle wrote:

Chayelle, I understand that ur idea of ignoring is a good strategy to stop a lot of bullies, but u are FORGETTING HOW MUCH CONTROL IT TAKES TO IGNORE AND MOST CHILDREN WHO ARE BULLIED DON'T HAVE THE POWER TO IGNORE, even adults find it hard to ignore and many times will yell back or sometimes respond physically bec. They get so angry.

It takes a lot of work and practice to be able to ignore but even so, its impossible for many adults to ignore others who bully verbally, ESPECIALLY BEC THE BULLY WILL USUALLY CONTINUE TO BULLY TO GET THE VICTIM TO REACT...its almost impossible for kids to ignore.

Also, ur idea of responding to the bully with funny lines or good retorts may work for ur DD but does not work with a lot of victims of bullying bec. The bully can usually think of a better line"" to keep bullying and the victim will be stuck...I tried this with my son who told me kids specifically said "u can't play" so I told him to say "I will play, u are not in charge" he did that and played BUT THEN THE BULLY said" ill tell rebbe on u" so my son got nervous so he stopped playing. I can't anticipate all the things the bully will say, and I explained to my son wat to do next time, but my son doesn't express his ideas well.

My other son who is quick at thinking and is good at expressing his ideas does turn the bullying into a joke so it stopped.

Every child is different and usually the kids weaker in standing up for themselves will get bullied, so they will have a hard time with "proper verbal responses" to stop the bullying.