Son had a fight in school

amother

Beige

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 7:09 am

My nephew was getting bullied in school by a child whose parents weren't dealing with it. (Neither did the school -it was the administrator's son, IIRC.) My BIL finally called up his parents and threatened that he would call in the police if it happened one more time. B"H, that did it for that child and he never bothered him again.
I am pretty impressed with the courage of your DS, OP, and of course you should back him up. he did the right thing.

saw50st8

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 7:12 am

Violence is definitely not the first line of defense but that poor kid :-( At this point, good for him.

Sometimes, a shock to the bully works really well. I hope your son heals from this and grows up to be emotionally stable.

Amalia

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 7:48 am

dancingqueen wrote:

I often agree with you, but do you really believe that mommy3? I think calling someone a fatso is abhorrent but punching someone in the FACE is also abhorrent. Both boys deserve a consequence.

Op does your sons school have a guidance counselor or other mental health professional? Intervention is needed here it seems.

In my opinion,

It is the bully, and not OP’s son, who needs the help of a “mental health professional” to help him understand that when he is calling someone “fatso”, he is spilling this person’s blood.

It seems that many people in this world would benefit from the same kind of counseling.

Last edited by Amalia on Mon, Jan 14 2019, 8:23 am; edited 2 times in total

amother

Taupe

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 7:56 am

This idea to answer words with fists is plain wrong. You are teaching your sons violence is the solution to words. We have prisons filled with people who think violence is the answer when frustrated. 7th grade is too old to teach this.

The first thing is to call the school and document each incident with an email - not a pen and paper. Then OP's husband should have gone to see the bully's father or OP should call the bully's mom . These people are cowards.

OP's son should answer back the name calling. If, and only if, it escalates to violence should he return the violence. In this instance, I would suspend OP's son if I were the school administrator if not kick him out of the school if he did it again.

I had 3 incidences of bullying that I had to deal with.

The first incident was my son was picked on by a big shot Rabbi's son. I documented everything. I told my son if he touches you, hit back harder. The boy banged my son's head into the desk. My son banged his head back harder, and the boy had to go for stitches. I had a fistful of emails to show the principal and the boy's mother - the rebbetzen.

The second incident was on the bus. I called the school and the boy's parents. That was their only warning. I got the boy thrown off the bus for 2 weeks.

The 3rd incident was a demented bully. I documented. The boy's father was afraid to open the door to my DH. The father said he was bullied as a child, and he rather his son be aggressive than be bullied. You can't talk to stupid people like this. I documented.

My son ended up getting the better of the bully when the bully got physical first. The school wanted to suspend both. I said no and showed my documentation.

This boy was thrown out of 3 schools and ended up on public school. I heard he was expelled from there. We even had a long thead here discussing this boy's actions.

I can't help but believe the boy's violence was programmed by his parents.

amother

Firebrick

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 7:58 am

I just got a call from another kids mother that there is a little girl (not her child) that is on our kids bus that is being bullied by the older kids. She called me because her daughter told her that my daughter recently joined the bullies.
When my daugther came home, I asked her if she knows Batsheva (kid being bullied), I asked her if she likes her and she said no, I asked her why she said she does not know but all the girls dont like her.
My daugther got punished, she also had to bring a nosh for the little girl.
I called the Principal right away. I know my daughter stopped (I am on top of it,) I do not know about the other kids.
If you know the other kids parents, and you know they will take care of it, call them. I was horrified but glad to hear about it and upset I did not know about it earlier.

amother

Beige

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 8:25 am

Have you never heard of verbal violence? Yes, words can also be violent - they hurt just like physical violence. I assume OP's son tried words in the past and they obviously didn't work. TBH, while I would never tell a student to hit, in such a situation, I would pretend that I didn't see.

Amalia

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 8:28 am

amother wrote:

There was no meeting yet. My husband returned the menahels call and left a mssg. For the record, a friend of mine forwarded me a CD of this menahel at a parlor meeting a few years ago. He was taking questions from the crowd. A question was posed about what to do about bullying. He went thru a few ideas about contacting the rebbe and principal but he then says something along the lines of, "if the bullying is persistent, and you've already tried various methods to resolve it without success, I shouldn't admit this publicly but a good zetts often is the solution".
Those are his words. I will say this is an extremely well known menahel in New York. We will obviously use this information in our conversation with him.

Dear OP,

Thank you for the update. I hope your meeting with the school goes well.

sped

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 8:47 am

My son complained about bullying type behavior in cheder (Yerushalmi cheder, Satamr rebbe) when the rebbe wasn't looking. He was about 5-6 yo at the time. I spoke to the rebbe and said that I'm not sure if it's really this or what you can do about it. He responded with, "Sure I can deal with it, and will. This absolutely can not go on here." I got back to him with names, and DS never complained again. That is how bullying should be dealt with!

amother

Taupe

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 8:52 am

amother wrote:

That's ridiculous. OP's son assaulted the bully because his father said so. Words are not a justification for a punch in the face. Teaching the son this is wrong.

You ladies are crazy. You can't punch me for that.

mommy3b2c

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 9:18 am

amother wrote:

You clearly don’t understand what bullying is.

amother

Babyblue

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 9:37 am

amother wrote:

Oh well, at least I tried.

little neshamala

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 9:44 am

amother wrote:

"Words" are not verbal abuse. "Words" are things like cat dog house.

Can you tell me if you would be ok with a child punching a physical bully who has not stopped beating him up since september, despite school involvement? Would that be ok?

amother

Babyblue

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 10:03 am

nchr wrote:

1. I would sit down with the bully's parents, although I know that this can often result in severe punishment of the bully because you never know what he is going through that is making him behave so poorly, abhorrently and out of control.

2. I would sit down with the school to mandate the bullying be address. Either via suspension, receiving treatment, developing some other type of plan, etc. I'd pledge dinner money if our school was so absent minded that they otherwise won't deal with a MAJOR issue (I.e. Bullying). It's hard to believe that a child who is physically hitting another (causing black eyes, etc.) on a regular basis has not yet been suspended or expelled and I'm so sorry if your child is dealing with that.

3. I would speak to a professional about tools I can give my child to not be bullied or to not take it to heart (ignoring, joking, telling a teacher, getting other kids involved, giving out gifts and snacks even to the bully, get my child enrolled in an after school actively like karate which shuns the use of violence but can make him feel empowered)

4. I'd consider changing schools, even if it meant dealing with an array of other issues (I.e. hashkafic ones, community pressures, etc. because your child comes before the community).

5. Some people would go to bais din and follow up with filing a law suit or at least a cease and desist, but I know myself too well and I know that wouldn't be something I'd consider, but it is a valid route.

I do have a neighbor whose son punches my three year old every time he sees him. He calls him a non Jew (g-word) and spits at him because my husband and I have smart phones. My child does not even know what a smart phone is. I would be very disappointed if my child hit him back. I've spoken to the mother and she thinks it is fine because her child only behaves that way when provoked and that smart phones are bad, but thankfully these children are not in school together so we can avoid it. I think the child has an undiagnosed condition or something as well because he is very hyper and does not behave age appropriately although academically he is fine (as per his mother's input) and I'd expect his school to do something if he was treating other children this way.

Everything in life has its time. And sometimes, though rarely, violence is needed. All these niceties about giving the kids tools how to handle it, generally works well only in the early stages of bullying. Once the lines have been drawn, these tools are usually equal to bringing a knife to a gun battle. The stakes are much higher and it takes so much more to get the bully to back down.

At this point, when bullying has gone on for some time, the poor kid needs to know and feel that his pain & suffering is understood and whatever it takes to get the bully to stop, will be done. The first 3 tactics are soft-balling it, and it's all too late for it. Those have a chance of working if the bullying is caught in the early stages, or if, even better, it has been given to the child prior to the start of any bullying

Furthermore, what happens when a long-time bullied child does try to use his words or the ignoring tactic and it fails? It only worsens the situation, he now feels like a failure too.

When a child's self esteem is being shredded bit by bit and it may take a lifetime to glue it all back together, then that's a time for some really tough action. Our policemen are trained to use nonviolent tactics to diffuse situations, but are given the go ahead to resort to violence to take down a dangerous criminal, imo, the same situation applies. All children should be taught the skills how to handle such situations, but if a situation has gone far enough that its literally killing the child from the inside out, then a good punch to the face of that dangerous bully or some mighty arm twisting is in full order.

If a child doesn't possess the self control or character to avoid torturing another person, maybe the memory of that black and blue mark or painful shiner will do that for him.

mommy3b2c

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 10:31 am

amother wrote:

Explained very well. Thank you.

amother

Plum

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 11:06 am

Op I can relate because my son was bullied as well he used to come home crying and we taught him to fight back. He learned to fight back a little too hard because he had so much anger in him that the kids learned not to start up with him.
I did recently get a phone call from his principal about a incident and I clearly explained that we give our son full permission to fight back. My son is never one to start up but he will defend himself and that's okay.

Op I know this is painful to watch. Be sure to explain to your child again and again that he is beautiful just the way he is and that the one who is calling him names is in pain and is not a happy boy and calling others names is to make him feel better about himself.

Clarissa

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 11:13 am

Verbal bullying is more cruel than getting punched. The school needs to educate the students about how incredibly damaging verbal bullying can be.

Reading this wants me to go punch the bully in the face. So sorry your son is going through this.

Shuly

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 11:21 am

Your son did the right thing.
Everyone can talk all they want about not using violence, but anyone who knows boys will tell you that you that violence is the only thing that stops bullying.

Of course, he should never start up with random kids and hurt them, but if he is being bullied, a punch in the face was the perfect response.

I have a lot of brothers and two were bullied. They were too scared to fight back, but luckily, they each told their older brother who had no problem confronting the bully, pinning him to the wall and telling him, if you start up with my brother again, I'll beat you up.
That stopped the bullying immediately.

When my son was being bullied and the school wasn't stopping it, I spoke to a chinuch expert and he told me to teach my son to shove them back.

A shove is probably better than a punch because no one really complains about being pushed, so maybe tell your son to just push him really hard if it happens again.
And tell your son you are so proud of him for standing up for himself and for recognizing that they are wrong.

amother

Mustard

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 11:30 am

My children were bullied endlessly by neighbors on my block. They had garbage thrown at them. And they had kids deliberately throwing things in front of their bikes as they rode so they swerved into the streets. One mother denied it. One mother said Oh I know about it but its not my kids. And one stinker blamed my children.

One fine day, my son had enough. There was a girl who didn't leave him alone. And actually another mother told her several times to stop. She didn't. My sweet, mild mannered son slapped her face.

She came up to my house crying with her father ready to yell at me. And I told them firmly right back that she got what she deserved. And you know what he said? Well, the other kids bully her so that's why she did it. And I told him mine don't. And he said you're right. It was never your son. She never bothered my kids again.

My son said so many times to me I could call her a fatso because she's a heavy child but I know I can't because that really hurts. And he never called her names. Sometimes there are children who need to learn the hard way. And sometimes there are parents who are pathetic idiots who shouldn't be allowed to take their newborns home from the hospital.

And if you blab about "no tolerance policies" you should read the explosive child by ross greene who makes clear exactly how ridiculous that is.

ShishKabob

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 12:34 pm

Till this child learns how to defend himself or deal with it in another way I agree that he should give a good zetz. Boys are different than girls, maybe it wouldn't come to this with a girl. But with boys, physical strength definitely is a major force. Good luck op, I hope the bullying stops now!

amother

Cerulean

Mon, Jan 14 2019, 1:20 pm

ShishKabob wrote:

Why is it OK for a boy to resort to physical violence in response to verbal taunts, but not a girl?

Would it still be OK with you if the OP's child had knocked out the other child's permanent tooth, or broken his nose?

Maybe there is some point at which physical violence is all the victim has left; I've no clue if the child was at that point or not.

But always remember that the verbal bullies want something from you, and that's a reaction. If you don't give it, then they move on. Me, I always gave the reaction, so I was always taunted and bullied. So I taught my kids that, no matter how much it hurts inside, show nothing. And that worked for them.

Physical assault is, of course, different; you cannot just ignore.