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amother




Ginger


Post  Sun, Jan 13 2019, 12:30 pm
Reading the threads about hosting made me very sad. I've been on both ends of the spectrum, and neither side is perfect or should be perfect. We are human beings, all trying our best.

As a BT, I had to eat out for many Shabbos meals.
I've been insulted (We're going to make Kiddush now.. Do you know what that means?" even when I was noticeably frum already).

I've been forced to eat chicken soup as a vegetarian (the host should have been notified by her niece, who was bringing me along, but she forgot. At that point, the host should have just sucked it up, but she berated me until I ate it, choking on tears.).

And with even the best hostesses, I've felt a stranger.
A person on the taking end.
A person viewed as a "chesed case."
I've felt worthless.
But thank G-d, a few wonderful hosts were able to turn that around and make me feel worthwhile.
A good host has the ability to build self esteem, self value and make a person develop an integral bond with the community. A bad hostess can kill a person.

HOSTESSES: If you get upset at your guests, feel you have the right to be mchanech them, or embarrass them at any time in any way, then you have NO BUSINESS HOSTING. You are destroying people.

As a hostess, on the other hand, I've had guests who've changed a baby with diarrhea on my bed and left a huge, disgusting mess behind.
I've had a bipolar girl work her way into my family life and try to keep my attention 24 hours a day.
I've had guests make a wreck in my house.

GUESTS: Be on your best behavior.

HOSTESSES: Yes, there can be time that hosting is hard, but SWALLOW IT. If you can't swallow it, then stop hosting. You may not realize it, but your meal that you worked so hard for is coming at a price for your guests as well.

They are swallowing their pride to humble themselves and eat at your table.
They are giving up the comfort of home.
And many times, they are giving up their non-Jewish names, their way of live, their being recognized as knowledgeable. And because it took work for you to do your "chesed" you have the right to get upset at them for not being the most polite?

HOSTESSES: Grow up. It isn't about YOU. If you are going to do the mitzvah of opening your home, do it with a gentle heart. The people coming to you are just as giving, allowing you to perform the mitzvah through them. Do it the right way.

And now, as a person well acclimated into the frum community, surrounded by frum people, I WISH I could host, but guests are infrequent.

HOSTESSES: Guests are a bracha. Appreciate them, care for them, uplift them.
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amother




Bronze


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 5:46 pm
Ok then, I would like your opinion (or anyone else's) on a question I have.

I have a guest that comes almost every week for friday night dinner because he is single and no one else invites him. They used to invite him but no longer. He is not frum more conservadox. He is not our friend just someone from the community.

We believe hachnasat orchim is important and we do not want anyone to be alone on shabbos so my husband gave him an open invitation.

A couple of months ago he says he is bringing a date. It turns out it was a women he messages a few times on jdate and he was meeting her for the first time at my house. It was very uncomfortable for me. After that I politely sent him an email indicating that he was welcome for shabbat but our home is not a place for his social engagements. Didn't seem to register.

Then on sukkot in the middle of all these triple headers he says I am bringing 2 friends and its one of my friend's birthday, it would be great if you could make him a cake. I was very mad and I did not do so.

Now he tells us again, its his other friends birthday and he is bringing him and another guest next shabbat.

I don't want to insult him and my husband will be mad if I say no so I won't and its not an issue for the extra food or preparation I just find this behavior disrespectful and overreaching. Am I wrong. What do you think?
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Raisin




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 5:50 pm
"I don't have time to make a cake, but feel free to bring one over. X bakery makes lovely ones, or the supermarket has ice cream cakes."
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dankbar




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 6:35 pm
We learned in hi school in hilchos derech eretz...." אין אורח מכניס אורח" meaning one guest shouldn't invite another guest.
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amother




Bisque


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 6:43 pm
Quote:
I just find this behavior disrespectful and overreaching. Am I wrong.


No- he's socially off.
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Tzutzie




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 7:05 pm
Op, I'm sorry you had such bad experiences as a guest.
She shamed you for not EATING YOUR SOUP?
I mean, I'd be annoyed if I wasn't told my guest is a vegetarian because then I'd feel awful not having decent or wnoigh food for them. But gosh. YOU are more important than any soup in the world!

I rarely host. Because I'm not up to it much. With constant simchas, moving twice within 3 years, pregnancy postpartum sick kids....
And I cannot and will not host if I don’t feel up to it. Not for selfish reasons. But for reasons you listed. I feel and strongly believe a guest can feel if you are happy to have them.
So when I am up to it, I invite.
Guest around here are 99% of the time a full shabbos houseguest. So its not just a meal. A meal is no big deal. When I lived where in a bigger community where most poeple lived withing walking distance I did it often. It makes shabbos exciting to have guest! Amd my kids love it too!
So when guest show up, I show them my pantry and fridge, they are open to take anything if they feel hungry at any time.
Anything I don't want them to take I put away in a hidden closet. (Rarely happens)

I hate being a guest becuase of many reasons.
So we don't go away often at all. I'd rather host than go away.
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amother




Forestgreen


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 7:18 pm
amother wrote:
Reading the threads about hosting made me very sad. I've been on both ends of the spectrum, and neither side is perfect or should be perfect. We are human beings, all trying our best.

As a BT, I had to eat out for many Shabbos meals.
I've been insulted (We're going to make Kiddush now.. Do you know what that means?" even when I was noticeably frum already).

I've been forced to eat chicken soup as a vegetarian (the host should have been notified by her niece, who was bringing me along, but she forgot. At that point, the host should have just sucked it up, but she berated me until I ate it, choking on tears.).

And with even the best hostesses, I've felt a stranger.
A person on the taking end.
A person viewed as a "chesed case."
I've felt worthless.
But thank G-d, a few wonderful hosts were able to turn that around and make me feel worthwhile.
A good host has the ability to build self esteem, self value and make a person develop an integral bond with the community. A bad hostess can kill a person.

HOSTESSES: If you get upset at your guests, feel you have the right to be mchanech them, or embarrass them at any time in any way, then you have NO BUSINESS HOSTING. You are destroying people.

As a hostess, on the other hand, I've had guests who've changed a baby with diarrhea on my bed and left a huge, disgusting mess behind.
I've had a bipolar girl work her way into my family life and try to keep my attention 24 hours a day.
I've had guests make a wreck in my house.

GUESTS: Be on your best behavior.

HOSTESSES: Yes, there can be time that hosting is hard, but SWALLOW IT. If you can't swallow it, then stop hosting. You may not realize it, but your meal that you worked so hard for is coming at a price for your guests as well.

They are swallowing their pride to humble themselves and eat at your table.
They are giving up the comfort of home.
And many times, they are giving up their non-Jewish names, their way of live, their being recognized as knowledgeable. And because it took work for you to do your "chesed" you have the right to get upset at them for not being the most polite?

HOSTESSES: Grow up. It isn't about YOU. If you are going to do the mitzvah of opening your home, do it with a gentle heart. The people coming to you are just as giving, allowing you to perform the mitzvah through them. Do it the right way.

And now, as a person well acclimated into the frum community, surrounded by frum people, I WISH I could host, but guests are infrequent.

HOSTESSES: Guests are a bracha. Appreciate them, care for them, uplift them.


OP, I thank you for your candor and also sympathize with your awful experiences.

However, one thing is puzzling me: I’m also a BT and vegetarian and nobody would ever be able to successfully force me to eat chicken soup. I am puzzled why you didn’t just say no, you don’t eat meat? 🤔
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SixOfWands




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 7:25 pm
amother wrote:
SNIP
I've been forced to eat chicken soup as a vegetarian (the host should have been notified by her niece, who was bringing me along, but she forgot. At that point, the host should have just sucked it up, but she berated me until I ate it, choking on tears.).


That sounds like an awful experience. I'm sorry you went through it.

amother wrote:

And with even the best hostesses, I've felt a stranger.
A person on the taking end.
A person viewed as a "chesed case."
I've felt worthless.
SNIP
HOSTESSES: Yes, there can be time that hosting is hard, but SWALLOW IT. If you can't swallow it, then stop hosting. You may not realize it, but your meal that you worked so hard for is coming at a price for your guests as well.

They are swallowing their pride to humble themselves and eat at your table.
They are giving up the comfort of home.
And many times, they are giving up their non-Jewish names, their way of live, their being recognized as knowledgeable. And because it took work for you to do your "chesed" you have the right to get upset at them for not being the most polite



If you're invited to my home, its because I want you at my table. If you feel that you have to "swallow your pride to humble yourself" to be at my table, then I wish you would just stay home.

And, indeed, I do expect you to be polite to me. And to my family. Then again, I expect you to be polite to me and my family if I run into you on the street. Its really a pretty basic expectation. Again, if you feel that being polite is too much for you, please stay home.
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Cheiny




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 7:40 pm
amother wrote:
Ok then, I would like your opinion (or anyone else's) on a question I have.

I have a guest that comes almost every week for friday night dinner because he is single and no one else invites him. They used to invite him but no longer. He is not frum more conservadox. He is not our friend just someone from the community.

We believe hachnasat orchim is important and we do not want anyone to be alone on shabbos so my husband gave him an open invitation.

A couple of months ago he says he is bringing a date. It turns out it was a women he messages a few times on jdate and he was meeting her for the first time at my house. It was very uncomfortable for me. After that I politely sent him an email indicating that he was welcome for shabbat but our home is not a place for his social engagements. Didn't seem to register.

Then on sukkot in the middle of all these triple headers he says I am bringing 2 friends and its one of my friend's birthday, it would be great if you could make him a cake. I was very mad and I did not do so.

Now he tells us again, its his other friends birthday and he is bringing him and another guest next shabbat.

I don't want to insult him and my husband will be mad if I say no so I won't and its not an issue for the extra food or preparation I just find this behavior disrespectful and overreaching. Am I wrong. What do you think?


Of course he’s wrong, but obviously he’s not knowledgeable in what’s socially acceptable, hence the reason others don’t invite him. You should be firm with him and say, while you are happy to host him, it’s not ok to invite his friends over without asking you in advance, and if he does ask, just say it’s not a good time.
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Cheiny




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 7:42 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
If you're invited to my home, its because I want you at my table. If you feel that you have to "swallow your pride to humble yourself" to be at my table, then I wish you would just stay home.

And, indeed, I do expect you to be polite to me. And to my family. Then again, I expect you to be polite to me and my family if I run into you on the street. Its really a pretty basic expectation. Again, if you feel that being polite is too much for you, please stay home.


It’s a given that people should be polite at all times, even on imamother, no?
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amother




Ginger


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 10:08 pm
Tzuztie: You appear to be a great hostess. Good for you! Keep it up.

Amother forestgreen: I've always been a sensitive person and I was put in a situation where I was shamed and humiliated. She was screaming at me and I was trying not to cry. At that point, I felt the right thing to do was to not anger my hostess anymore, even if it meant I had to do something I'd never thought I would. I took one or two spoonfuls. I felt awful. It was such a bad experience. I had lost my autonomy through shame.

Six of Wands: This is not the first thread where I've seen that you really don't seem to have sensitivity to other people. I really hope that you aren't the type to scream at someone for not eating soup... I never said anything about being impolite. I said that eating at someone's table, being the guest, reliant upon the host, comes with a sense of humility. The reminder that you are taking and not on the giving end.
Yes, both hosts and guests need to be polite. But do realize that even though you are expending time and energy, the guess is also giving away something: his comfort. It's not his home, not his reign.

Amother bronze: Something is wrong with that guest. If you've invited him and he does something odd while in your home, as long as it isn't endangering your family b'ruchniyus or b'gashmius, then paste on a smile and be the gracious host.

But once he's out the door, you really don't have to invite him again!
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amother




Bisque


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 10:30 pm
Quote:
They are swallowing their pride to humble themselves and eat at your table.


What does that mean?
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amother




Ginger


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 10:37 pm
amother wrote:
Quote:
They are swallowing their pride to humble themselves and eat at your table.


What does that mean?


It means that it's hard to be a guest. To always, always follow instead of lead. To be the receiver and not the giver.

I see now that it could be read as signifying arrogance; on the contrary. I meant in regard to a normal person with normal pride, simply having to be a follower once again.

Not in terms of a narcissist who is allowing herself to eat with commoners. Batting Eyelashes
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amother




Apricot


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 10:42 pm
amother wrote:
It means that it's hard to be a guest. To always, always follow instead of lead. To be the receiver and not the giver.

I see now that it could be read as signifying arrogance; on the contrary. I meant in regard to a normal person with normal pride, simply having to be a follower once again.

Not in terms of a narcissist who is allowing herself to eat with commoners. Batting Eyelashes


I assumed you were also referring to someone who is new to Judaism/ Orthodoxy and is doing this as a learning experience. I grew up in a home where we hosted many, many people in that category. We were sympathetic to their obvious discomfort when they were first beginning their journey. It's very humbling for an adult to feel clueless at a dinner table.
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amother




Ginger


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 10:44 pm
amother wrote:
I assumed you were also referring to someone who is new to Judaism/ Orthodoxy and is doing this as a learning experience. I grew up in a home where we hosted many, many people in that category. We were sympathetic to their obvious discomfort when they were first beginning their journey. It's very humbling for an adult to feel clueless at a dinner table.


You nailed it apricot.
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imasoftov




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Feb 03 2019, 10:18 am
dankbar wrote:
We learned in hi school in hilchos derech eretz...." אין אורח מכניס אורח" meaning one guest shouldn't invite another guest.

We're OK with that but call first to find out if we have space. For repeat invitations it will help if the guest asks if it's OK rather than tells us short of an emergency like their kitchen caught fire or their flight was late and they just got into town.
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Squishy




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Feb 03 2019, 11:29 am
amother wrote:
Reading the threads about hosting made me very sad. I've been on both ends of the spectrum, and neither side is perfect or should be perfect. We are human beings, all trying our best.

As a BT, I had to eat out for many Shabbos meals.
I've been insulted (We're going to make Kiddush now.. Do you know what that means?" even when I was noticeably frum already).

I've been forced to eat chicken soup as a vegetarian (the host should have been notified by her niece, who was bringing me along, but she forgot. At that point, the host should have just sucked it up, but she berated me until I ate it, choking on tears.).

And with even the best hostesses, I've felt a stranger.
A person on the taking end.
A person viewed as a "chesed case."
I've felt worthless.
But thank G-d, a few wonderful hosts were able to turn that around and make me feel worthwhile.
A good host has the ability to build self esteem, self value and make a person develop an integral bond with the community. A bad hostess can kill a person.

HOSTESSES: If you get upset at your guests, feel you have the right to be mchanech them, or embarrass them at any time in any way, then you have NO BUSINESS HOSTING. You are destroying people.

As a hostess, on the other hand, I've had guests who've changed a baby with diarrhea on my bed and left a huge, disgusting mess behind.
I've had a bipolar girl work her way into my family life and try to keep my attention 24 hours a day.
I've had guests make a wreck in my house.

GUESTS: Be on your best behavior.

HOSTESSES: Yes, there can be time that hosting is hard, but SWALLOW IT. If you can't swallow it, then stop hosting. You may not realize it, but your meal that you worked so hard for is coming at a price for your guests as well.

They are swallowing their pride to humble themselves and eat at your table.
They are giving up the comfort of home.
And many times, they are giving up their non-Jewish names, their way of live, their being recognized as knowledgeable. And because it took work for you to do your "chesed" you have the right to get upset at them for not being the most polite?

HOSTESSES: Grow up. It isn't about YOU. If you are going to do the mitzvah of opening your home, do it with a gentle heart. The people coming to you are just as giving, allowing you to perform the mitzvah through them. Do it the right way.

And now, as a person well acclimated into the frum community, surrounded by frum people, I WISH I could host, but guests are infrequent.

HOSTESSES: Guests are a bracha. Appreciate them, care for them, uplift them.



You should realize that wearing a certain garb doesn't mean you are frum. Most secular women have clothes in their closet that could pass as frum. You need to have some sympathy for your hosts. How could they know where you are holding? They did not intend to insult you by talking about kiddish. If they didn't mention it, and you didn't know it, you would be insulted for that. How do they know where to thead the needle? You are going to find insults, if you are looking. You are going to find amazing hospitality if you are a positive person.

Most of this is in your head. The host did not force you to eat chicken soup. She was socially off, but how does a grownup force you to eat anything ?

You are too sensitive and allow others to dictate your self esteem. As a BT, you didn't have to eat out. There is no requirement to eat out. You say you felt worthless because of someone's behavior. You shouldn't have put yourself in that situation.

Please don't come to my table if you think you are humbling yourself to do so.

Please don't come to my table if you can't be polite.

Please don't come to my table if your self esteem is going to rise and fall because of what happens in my house. I don't want that responsibility.

Please don't come to my table if you have the need to be recognized as knowledgeable. I don't like pontificating people at my table.

My house is warm and welcoming. I offer good food and company. If that's not enough, please don't come.
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