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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling

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amother

Maroon

Wed, Jan 16 2019, 1:44 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I

My brother went to a Chassidish yeshiva and he can, today, walk into any college class on almost any subject and be comfortable teaching the course. Of course he's bright, but more important, he grew up with English books, English periodicals, and strong support for being secularly knowledgeable. That goes so much further than anything you can possibly learn in class.

I'm not sure how you think making such fantastical statements in anyway supports your continuing argument that English language classes aren't critical to navigate English speaking countries successfully.

I have the equivalent of a PHD and and have a near genius IQ - read widely in all subjects - and wouldn't make such a ridiculous statement in terms of my ability to teach a college course - even in the subject in which I theoretically have expertise.

Nor does your statement that your brother had 10th grade reading comprehension skills when he was seven pass muster either. I learned to read myself sometime before kindegarten/first grade because my mother was a primary school teacher and the books were lying around. FWIW, for whatever reason she didn't want to actually teach me to read so it was entirely self taught. My reading "comprehension" skills were far above what my age level were but there is really no such thing as a 7 year old having 10th grade reading comprehension skills because a significant portion of reading comprehension is the ability to understand what one is reading and a 7 year old lacks sufficient knowledge of the world to actually comprehend what they are reading. In others words, a newspaper can theoretically be written using vocabulary that a fifth grader knows but it is highly unlikely that a fifth grader is actually "comprehending" what the child is reading but they would be reading it completely without any context.

I am not sure what people are even discussing at this point. Public schools with student bodies similar to the kind of kids typically enrolled in Yeshivas generally have extremely high standard testing scores by all objective measures and it is unlikely that any students outside of those enrolled in MO expensive schools have equivalent scores. Of course there might be a few outliers whose parents are committed to extreme enrichment at home but the reality is that the typical boy is not going to receive that kind of enrichment at home.

Chayalle

Wed, Jan 16 2019, 2:16 pm

amother wrote:

I say the schools dont cheat.

I worked in several Bais Yaakov schools & yeshivot teaching regents and never once saw any school sanctioned cheating (and kids were severely punished if caught)

I can't imagine they cheated in the BY school I attended. I mean, if an individual student cheated, I can't speak for that. But they were super-careful about testing. You didn't bring your own paper - the school gave out yellow paper pads for tests. You were seated in long rows and the girls on either side of you were from a different grade. Proctors walked around monitoring the situation constantly.

I don't want to sound like I'm bashing Chassidim specificlaly, but a Chassidish cousin of mine told me that when they used to take government tests in her elementary school, the teacher used to tell them which answer to fill in. This leads me to believe that that particular school can not have been up to par with their secular education, or there would have been no need for this.

Admittedly, this was over 25 years ago. Perhaps they've upgraded since then.

imasoftov

Wed, Jan 16 2019, 5:05 pm

keym wrote:

I really have no skin in this game because I'm not Chassidish and don't live in New York. But a few things faulty with this logic.

1) this man went to school with 2-3 hours of secular studies in elementary school and 1-1.5 hours in high school. That may or may not be enough, but its definitely sufficient for basic 3 Rs. Parents who complain, their kids get much less to none.

2) you cannot use 1 such man as an example. He is an exception and not the average. For every man like him, there are 30,40 who are struggling without the basic skills to feed their family.

It is more impressive, or a "shtuch" if you will if 85/90% of a given class gets above say 1000 on SATs rather than the one student who gets a 1600.

My high school had one semester when they weren't even teaching geometry but the school average in geometry was 96!

Unfortunately this isn't a very instructive measure of either the school's teaching or the students' knowledge of geomerty, there was only one student teaching herself geometry that year and they forgot to order the regents so they arbitrarily gave her two points less than she had gotten in the previous regents.

imasoftov

Wed, Jan 16 2019, 5:15 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Hello, you are all making a mountain out of a molehill. There are actually MANY Chassidish yeshivos that have a decent English education. Ger, where the guy we are referring to went to school, is one of them.

Ger in Boro Park has a pretty decent secular education, please don't paint all Chassidish yeshivos with one broad brush.

Cheiny wrote:

Indeed, but it seems there are many who prefer to paint every Yeshiva with the same broad (critical) brush, as Moster did.

I have never suggested there aren't any with decent secular education, but I don't know how to make them all do that short of inspecting them all, just like health inspectors have to also be sent to the restaurants that have a well-deserved reputation for cleanliness.

imasoftov

Wed, Jan 16 2019, 5:16 pm

amother wrote:

I do think a kid who goes to a frum school and learns maths and english and gemara and chumash - the chumash and gemara learning does have a secular value. My husband went to a school that taught latin, a language no longer in use outside of the vatican. Schools still see value in offering Latin so aramaic and hebrew should be just as handy.

I don't think anyone is saying Gemara has no value, and if the school has a reasonable amount of secular studies that's fine. But if it devoted much of its time to Latin lessons at the expese of other secular studies that too would be cause for concern.

imasoftov

Wed, Jan 16 2019, 5:25 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I don't care where they are starting, I only care where they are ending. I want them OUT of Lakewood, NJ.

The more people want inspectors "out of <wherever>" the more I suspect they are needed.

Cheiny

Wed, Jan 16 2019, 8:44 pm

marina wrote:

The reason yeshivos have less children involved in gangs, drugs, crime than the public schools is because yeshivos are able to kick kids out for any reason they please, like if their mom drives a car or wears a shorter skirt, never mind drugs and crime.

While the public schools, in contrast, have to actually educate everyone, even those whose moms shoot up heroin every night.

Uch.

Cheiny

Wed, Jan 16 2019, 8:46 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Statistics?

Please don’t encourage that particular conversation to continue....

Cheiny

Wed, Jan 16 2019, 8:47 pm

ectomorph wrote:

They have to assume the worst of the religious community

so if we do well it's because we cheated

if we don't do well it's because we're terrible at educating

Isn’t it awful when those vile sentiments come from our own community?

Cheiny

Wed, Jan 16 2019, 8:49 pm

leah233 wrote:

This is why I'm not posting on this thread . The bias and hatred against the Yeshivos and frum establishment is so strong that it's just a waste of time.

They will believe what they want to believe no matter what. (And even so they will continue to pride themselves for being the rational, open minded, facts based ones...)

Yup, the personal agendas always come out....

amother

Scarlet

Wed, Jan 16 2019, 10:38 pm

Cheiny wrote:

Yup, the personal agendas always come out....

You started this thread with a personal agenda.

Adding to this.

If you were to go to college and take a class in logic or similar you may learn expression "The exception proves the rule" or "The exception that proves the rule".

The story you posted is actually a really good use of that expression.

imasoftov

Sun, Jan 20 2019, 4:50 am

Cheiny wrote:

Please don’t encourage that particular conversation to continue....

When someone tries to change the topic, I pay more attention.

imasoftov

Sun, Jan 20 2019, 4:56 am

Cheiny wrote:

Yup, the personal agendas always come out....

My personal agenda is, wait for it, educating children. Had the discussions here convinced me that this was already happening everywhere (again: everywhere, not just in some or even most schools), that would be great. But what the attempts to talk about schools with good education to deflect attention from schools with substandard education do is demonstrate that you too know there is a need for inspectors.

happyone

Sun, Jan 20 2019, 7:51 am

There are plenty of chassidish successful men out there, and many college grads that are losers and unsuccessful. Anyone thats driven , chassidish and all can achieve if they want to. Stop blaming a system or your parents.

amother

Violet

Sun, Jan 20 2019, 8:36 am

happyone wrote:

As others have pointed out, the fact that there are "plenty of chassidish successful men" does not negate the fact that there are many that are tremendously disadvantaged as a result of their poor education. It's like arguing that smoking isn't harmful since I can point out a 95 year old guy that smokes 3 packs a day.

amother

Goldenrod

Sun, Jan 20 2019, 9:09 am

happyone wrote:

Kiryas Yoel is consistently the poorest or one of the poorest towns in America. Satmar also provides little to no secular education for boys. These facts might just be related.

cbsp

Sun, Jan 20 2019, 10:03 am

Is this being discussed on a different thread?

http://agudathisrael.org/yaffe.....vices

amother

Orange

Sun, Jan 20 2019, 10:25 am

amother wrote:

Kiryas Yoel is consistently the poorest or one of the poorest towns in America. Satmar also provides little to no secular education for boys. These facts might just be related.

KJ is only poor on the books. When very few business transactions are reported, this helps to keep statistic artificially low.

If you visually compare the inner city of Newburgh (also in Orange county ny) and KJ, you can see what system wide underreporting accomplishes.

Every house has a crystal chandelier.* Many have gorgeous furniture. The family is well dressed often in expensive matching outfits, and the mom has classy jewelry. They are able to raise $50,000 plus for each child they marry off.

In Newburgh, they also spend a disproportionate amount on jewelry and clothes, but there is real poverty there. No question about it. The residents are hurting with rat infested apartments and horrendous living conditions.**

My point is you can't rely on what is reported to the government.

The quip about the chandelier in every apartment was told to me by a county official who was complaining what Medicaid was doing to the budget. They know there is fruad but are powerless to stop it because of the voting block.

The living conditions in Newburgh were told to me by the housing inspector.

Mommyg8

Sun, Jan 20 2019, 10:53 am

amother wrote:

Really?

He could really walk into a college-level neurobiology and behavior course, a college level global health class, a college-level journalism class, a college-level women's studies course, and a college-level biomedical engineering course (all randomly selected from an online college catalog) and not only follow the curriculum, but actually teach the course, with no preparation?

That's well beyond growing up with support for secular knowledge, and well into the far-beyond-genius category. I am impressed.

Which community college online catalog did you get these courses from? Please link, thank you.

Yes, he could teach some of them (you can guess which ones), and again, I never said without preparation.

Mommyg8

Sun, Jan 20 2019, 11:19 am

amother wrote:

I am phrasing this in a general way. On this thead(and many others) it is obvious who has a subpar education and who doesn't. It is almost like speaking a different language especially in areas of logic.

Your logic is flawed on your posts throughout this thread. But you don't realize what you are saying doesn't make sense.

I didn't single out your school to say they cheat. As you pointed out, I have no idea which schools you attended, so how could I accuse them of cheating?

BD, my son scored 13+ the first year his reading was tested in the 4th grade. I am a hands on parent. My parents were hands off, and I read 3 entire sets of encyclopedias by the time I read in 4th grade. I tested the highest in kindergarten district wide and my board scores rival Menachem Abramovitz only it was not one component.

For some kids, hands-on, hands-off, public school, prep school, yeshiva, home school they will thrive.

You made the statement about your brother. It's clear you don't want to own it because it is absurd.

Ok, orange, since you started....

There are some interesting assumptions that you have made here on this thread which are showcasing your faulty reasoning as well.

Assumption number one: that because my brother had a subpar secular education I did too. I'll let you think about that one. (And in fact, I went to more than one school over the years, one was Chassidish an one was not. The Chassidish school was on a way higher level than the other school I went to, just BTW).

Assumption number two: that because my brother is a genius I am a genius as well. Hm... that would be nice, it sort of rubs off by osmosis, I guess... But in actual fact, he is much, much smarter than me.

Assumption number three: that I do not have a college education. In fact I do. I suggest that you write to my alma mater that they have made a mistake in allowing me to graduate with a near perfect GPA and with honors and awards....

As far as logic....

You previously posted that you worked in four schools and you found that they all cheated. You must have missed the statistics class in your superior college education, as it is well known that a case study of four is not enough to be statistically significant, even putting aside for a moment that the study would be flawed from it's conception as the schools you worked for were not randomly selected at all.

Another flaw - you state that you are able to work in a field that you like because your husband's superior college education allows him to make enough money to allow you to work at a job you enjoy - implying that those who do not have a college degree do not make as much money. Besides for the fact that I personally know some who probably make more than your husband, you yourself pointed out that there are many in the Chassidish community who do, in fact, make lots of money - at least that's what you said.

Another point - responding to a different poster who said that it is not possible for a seven year old to score on a tenth grade level - you see, amother orange just said that her own son scored similarly. So it is obviously possible.

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