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Why do my kids need to help? why does e/o hav responsiblty?
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amother
Peach


 

Post Fri, Jan 18 2019, 8:32 am
I saw a response to a "helping..." Thread such that someone said that kids shouldn't think of helping as helping but should think of chores as everyone having responsibilities to get the home "running".

Pls help me explain this concept to my 13 yr old son. If I ask him to vacuum for shabbos, he says "he is not my slave". (I did explain to him how I hardly sit bec I'm always doing...doing...while he is relaxing ...so clearly he's not my slave.). Of course, he still does his chores, he knows he has to, otherwise he will have a consequence... But, I told him that's we all need to work together to run the house, to...and he says its my job. Then, he told me that its my choice if I choose to have him stay in the house, so really since its my house, I'm responsible to do everything...

I can't think of a good explanation why he should do chores. Saying "we are all responsible to make sure household is running..." Is not a good enough explanation because he says he doesn't care if household runs ...and I'm choosing to be nice"" to let him stay and live, eat, have possessions....that I chose to do it for him, so its my "fault" so I need to do chores...

Anyone can explain it better?
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amother
Cerise


 

Post Fri, Jan 18 2019, 8:38 am
So since he's being a bit of a stinker, I would give him his logic right back.

Yes, I choose to have him in the house, but I don't choose to give him food or let him use the washing machine. Does he like to be hungry and smelly? Yes I choose to want the house clean, and if he won't do it, then I choose not to send him to summer camp. Whatever "logic" you want, whatever things he likes that can possibly not be provided.

You need to find a way to clearly explain that things in life are not a given to anybody. And many things are a tradeoff. That kind of negotiation is often how we get needs fulfilled. Its a give and take. Like oh, honey can you take out the garbage. And dh does it because you don't like too, but then you make chopped liver (EWWW!!!) because he likes it and you like to please him in what he likes.
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Zehava




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 18 2019, 9:12 am
I agree that since he’s being fresh and using twisted logic on you that logical consequences are the way to go. Don’t get into back n forth with him. He isn’t your equal.
Don’t pay for extras, and I mean any extras, he can work and make his own money.
Don’t cook anything especially for him, he can eat what you cook for the family. Don’t clean his room, don’t even allow the cleaning lady in there, he can clean it himself.
But the most important thing to remember is to be totally calm and in control. Don’t allow him to rile you up, because that’ll defeat the purpose. Be completely logical and matter-of-fact about the whole thing.
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amother
Gray


 

Post Fri, Jan 18 2019, 9:36 am
I don't engage with them when they know they're being annoying and trying to get out of things. Just say once, "everyone in this house is expected to participate in keeping it clean and organized. As the parent, I make decisions about which jobs each of you can choose from." Anyone who ignores this and doesn't do what's expected will have a corresponding consequence- when the rest of the family enjoys something special, he will miss out.
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mha3484




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 18 2019, 9:40 am
I am of very mixed feelings. I make it known to everyone in my family (all boys oldest is 8) that everyone helps out but also I found that I did not always give jobs my oldest could do or I did not explain them with enough detail so he would be overwhelmed and get nasty about it.

I have learned to take tasks and break them into smaller jobs and hes a lot less cranky when I ask him to do things.
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little neshamala




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 18 2019, 9:55 am
OP there are plenty of logical answers I can give, but I really think we need the bigger picture before figuring out what to answer.
What is his relationship with you like in general? Do you get along/are you close or are you constantly bickering and engaged in a power of wills?

If its the former, id nicely have a chat, NOT in the moment when you need help, about how little people are raised to be bigger mentches, and how its a good midah to get used to helping out and pitching in.

If its the latter, I would totally drop it-for now- and focus on improving the relationship with the goal being that one day you can easily discuss responsibilities and expectations.

Remember to look at the bigger picture. You dont care so much about him picking up a broom this Friday, as much as you care that he grow up to be an emotionally nurtured, very mature young man who has terrific midos and looks to help out around his home (and future wife), because he has been conditioned to think of others and chipping in. That is your long term goal. If he is helping out bitterly right now, because hes being forced, youll have a clean house but youve accomplished nothing for the future...

Good luck!


Last edited by little neshamala on Fri, Jan 18 2019, 10:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 18 2019, 9:58 am
Actually, Hashem put him here into this world, and He put him here for a purpose. (hint: spending your life doing whatever you want is not the purpose.) The sole purpose for your being here in this world is to change negative middos to positive ones (R' Samson Rafael Hirsch).

By helping his mother (and B"EH in the future, his wife) he will overcome his negative tendencies and learn to be a responsible, contributing human being. And this is the purpose for which he was created.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 18 2019, 10:28 am
little neshamala wrote:
OP there are plenty of logical answers I can give, but I really think we need the bigger picture before figuring out what to answer.
What is his relationship with you like in general? Do you get along/are you close or are you constantly bickering and engaged in a power of wills?

If its the former, id nicely have a chat, NOT in the moment when you need help, about how little people are raised to be bigger mentches, and how its a good midah to get used to helping out and pitching in.

If its the latter, I would totally drop it-for now- and focus on improving the relationship with the goal being that one day you can easily discuss responsibilities and expectations.

Remember to look at the bigger picture. You dont care so much about him picking up a broom this Friday, as much as you care that he grow up to be an emotionally nurtured, very mature young man who has terrific midos and looks to help out around his home (and future wife), because he has been conditioned to think of others and chipping in. That is your long term goal. If he is helping out bitterly right now, because hes being forced, youll have a clean house but youve accomplished nothing for the future...

Good luck!


I can't like this post enough! You hit the nail on the head!
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little neshamala




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 18 2019, 10:30 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
I can't like this post enough! You hit the nail on the head!


Thank you.
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pause




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 18 2019, 10:36 am
Zehava wrote:
I agree that since he’s being fresh and using twisted logic on you that logical consequences are the way to go. Don’t get into back n forth with him. He isn’t your equal.
Don’t pay for extras, and I mean any extras, he can work and make his own money.
Don’t cook anything especially for him, he can eat what you cook for the family. Don’t clean his room, don’t even allow the cleaning lady in there, he can clean it himself.
But the most important thing to remember is to be totally calm and in control. Don’t allow him to rile you up, because that’ll defeat the purpose. Be completely logical and matter-of-fact about the whole thing.

This is engaging in war. I advise strongly NOT to go down this route. Please, OP, before you do something like this, speak to chinuch experts and professionals. This is a dangerous strategy.

I like little neshamala's approach much better. You definitely have less to lose with that.
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1untamedgirl




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 18 2019, 10:54 am
amother wrote:
So since he's being a bit of a stinker, I would give him his logic right back.

Yes, I choose to have him in the house, but I don't choose to give him food or let him use the washing machine. Does he like to be hungry and smelly? Yes I choose to want the house clean, and if he won't do it, then I choose not to send him to summer camp. Whatever "logic" you want, whatever things he likes that can possibly not be provided.

You need to find a way to clearly explain that things in life are not a given to anybody. And many things are a tradeoff. That kind of negotiation is often how we get needs fulfilled. Its a give and take. Like oh, honey can you take out the garbage. And dh does it because you don't like too, but then you make chopped liver (EWWW!!!) because he likes it and you like to please him in what he likes.

You can't legally withhold food and you can be charged with neglect for not providing clean clothing so that is not legit advice especially if this is a oivgekleter kid who will call authorities if abused/neglected. Maybe take away computer time but not essentials.
However, op mentioned that he already has chores and she is asking him to do extra chores which is what he is resenting and rebelling against. I believe that you can catch more bees with honey than with vinegar so op you can offer to pay him for any extra chores that you wants him to do around the house outside of his regular chores (which he already does without pay).
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Laiya




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 18 2019, 11:19 am
I think at this age, their logical reasoning ability kicks into high gear as their brains develop, and they experiment with using logic and testing how far it can take them. It would almost be cute if it weren't so exasperating.

In this particular situation, I agree with those who say don't get sucked into it, just stay calm and firm in your expectations.

But in general, I'd look for opportunities to have interesting discussions with him, to help him see things from different perspectives and fine tune his logical reasoning abilities, since he's clearly a bright kid.
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Cheiny




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 18 2019, 11:24 am
amother wrote:
I saw a response to a "helping..." Thread such that someone said that kids shouldn't think of helping as helping but should think of chores as everyone having responsibilities to get the home "running".

Pls help me explain this concept to my 13 yr old son. If I ask him to vacuum for shabbos, he says "he is not my slave". (I did explain to him how I hardly sit bec I'm always doing...doing...while he is relaxing ...so clearly he's not my slave.). Of course, he still does his chores, he knows he has to, otherwise he will have a consequence... But, I told him that's we all need to work together to run the house, to...and he says its my job. Then, he told me that its my choice if I choose to have him stay in the house, so really since its my house, I'm responsible to do everything...

I can't think of a good explanation why he should do chores. Saying "we are all responsible to make sure household is running..." Is not a good enough explanation because he says he doesn't care if household runs ...and I'm choosing to be nice"" to let him stay and live, eat, have possessions....that I chose to do it for him, so its my "fault" so I need to do chores...

Anyone can explain it better?


Not everything needs a major explanation. At 13 he’s certainly old enough to grasp what you’re saying and understand that since he’s a member of the family, and benefits from all YOU do for HIM (ie. cooking, buying and laundering his clothes, and so much more, etc. ie. parents working to support everything the whole family needs to live, and enjoys...) he must do his share. Otherwise, you can turn it around and ask how he’d like it if you said, “I’m not your slave,” and he will then have to begin shopping for his own food, cooking, paying for all of it, as well as his clothes and everything else he has....
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Zehava




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 18 2019, 12:16 pm
pause wrote:
This is engaging in war. I advise strongly NOT to go down this route. Please, OP, before you do something like this, speak to chinuch experts and professionals. This is a dangerous strategy.

I like little neshamala's approach much better. You definitely have less to lose with that.

It’s only war if done with the intentions of war. If done the right way, calmly, lovingly, logically, matter of fact, with zero sarcasm or arguments, then it isn’t war.
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pause




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 18 2019, 12:19 pm
Zehava wrote:
It’s only war if done with the intentions of war. If done the right way, calmly, lovingly, logically, matter of fact, with zero sarcasm or arguments, then it isn’t war.

It is. It's a cold war.

I can just repeat: Do not do this without professional guidance.
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Zehava




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 18 2019, 12:39 pm
pause wrote:
It is. It's a cold war.

I can just repeat: Do not do this without professional guidance.

It’s only a Cold War if you perceive it as such, if you secretly, in your heart, want to get back at your child.
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pause




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 18 2019, 12:53 pm
Zehava wrote:
It’s only a Cold War if you perceive it as such, if you secretly, in your heart, want to get back at your child.

Not true. As much as you might want to convince yourself, your child doesn't know your intentions. It's your actions that matter. Many people have been hurt by actions of well-intentioned people.

I'm wondering why you are so adamant that this is a valid approach: Have you ever tried it with your own teen or been on the receiving end of such treatment?

I'm not saying this is never a valid mehalech, but not as advice that should be dispensed casually. Such advice should only be given by someone who is an expert mechanech (and mental health professional) who knows the people involved and will provide continuous ongoing guidance.
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penguin




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 18 2019, 1:03 pm
I would be more concerned about my relationship with my child than the chores getting done. If you have a good relationship he will want to help you.

Not everyone can do this, but I always took more cleaning help than I could afford in order not to have to ask my kids for help. They ended up helping very willingly because they weren't required to help.
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amother
Pink


 

Post Fri, Jan 18 2019, 1:04 pm
OP, my kid said the same to me at around age 11. Talking was useless, even at a calm time. And the next child started copying the older one.

I decided my child was mature enough to do their own laundry. All children at that age are now taught laundry technique and courtesy rules for sharing a washer and dryer. I don't touch their dirty laundry basket, but I model courtesy: if there's clean stuff in the washer, I'll hang it or put the load in the dryer as needed.

I realized the kids saw me as a personal housekeeper. I adjusted accordingly. Now I make 1 dinner for all, I decluttered the house and limited toys out so cleaning is quick. I use the time I gained for a walk around the block if necessary. I make time to spend with each child. I cut down on extras so there was time to be present and do the mothering part of my job as well as have time for myself. I needed to reduce my resentment so I could build our relationship.

If a child asked for something when I was in the middle of working, eg. a library book or pizza on a Sunday afternoon, I replied "As soon as I'm done here we can go to the library. If you help, the job will go faster." I make sure to follow through.

DH and I also decided it's our duty to our future son and daughter in laws to set the example of respect. We are careful to praise all help loudly in front of the other parent, and say thank you and repeat that we all are part of the team. We also don't say no when our spouse asks for help.

It's been working out ok so far. When someone says they're not our slave, we ignore it and move on, expecting them to do the requested job.

Edited to reflect others' responses to OP.
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Zehava




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 18 2019, 1:23 pm
pause wrote:
Not true. As much as you might want to convince yourself, your child doesn't know your intentions. It's your actions that matter. Many people have been hurt by actions of well-intentioned people.

I'm wondering why you are so adamant that this is a valid approach: Have you ever tried it with your own teen or been on the receiving end of such treatment?

I'm not saying this is never a valid mehalech, but not as advice that should be dispensed casually. Such advice should only be given by someone who is an expert mechanech (and mental health professional) who knows the people involved and will provide continuous ongoing guidance.

Honestly?
I’m following a parenting approach which uses this tool. Among many others. But maybe you’re right that if given to a random stranger it can be used the wrong way.
As far as intentions, this approach holds by, and I’ve proven it in my parenting, that a child absolutely feels your intentions. Children subconsciously pick up on your feelings. They know if they riled you up. They know if you’re angry. They know if you want to get back at them.
It also definitely comes across in your tone of voice and body language.
If your intentions aren’t to punish, then you will otherwise treat the child with love and respect, while stating the facts when they come up. You won’t subject the kid to cold silences or angry rants.
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