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simcha2




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jan 30 2019, 9:56 am
amother wrote:
LOL. NY could have just passed a bill giving all American citizens (in NY) a free college education but instead they passed a bill giving illegal aliens access to scholarship and grants that many citizens don''t get. Cant trust these liberals to do the right thing so why vote for them?

So you admit that illegal aliens are not just cleaning bathrooms or picking cotton in the field.. how exactly do they get these jobs if they need proof that they can work in America? How are they paying taxes (and the ITIN was already discussed in the other thread posted above so don't bother using that excuse again).


I said I wasn't engaging because you are ridiculous. But you've pushed me to it.

Only 5 states allow professional licenses to undocumented aliens. Of those 4 require DACA.
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amother




Orange


Post  Wed, Jan 30 2019, 10:03 am
amother wrote:
LOL. NY could have just passed a bill giving all American citizens (in NY) a free college education but instead they passed a bill giving illegal aliens access to scholarship and grants that many citizens don''t get. Cant trust these liberals to do the right thing so why vote for them?

So you admit that illegal aliens are not just cleaning bathrooms or picking cotton in the field.. how exactly do they get these jobs if they need proof that they can work in America? How are they paying taxes (and the ITIN was already discussed in the other thread posted above so don't bother using that excuse again).


What is the "right thing"?

Americans have plenty access to scholarships.

This concept that illegal immigrants have a better life then citizens is inaccurate.

Nobody needs a SSN or ITIN to pay sales tax.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jan 30 2019, 10:06 am
I don't want to bring us back to the whole Nazi thing but there's going to be a fascinating interview on WJR Detroit radio with a 97 (IIRC) y.o. Jewish German academic who escaped in the late 30s and is - happily - having his German citizenship officially restored. Interesting that he wants it back. The host, who himself is American born to German (gentile) parents, sounded surprised in his blurb.
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simcha2




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jan 30 2019, 10:20 am
amother wrote:
LOL. NY could have just passed a bill giving all American citizens (in NY) a free college education but instead they passed a bill giving illegal aliens access to scholarship and grants that many citizens don''t get. Cant trust these liberals to do the right thing so why vote for them?

So you admit that illegal aliens are not just cleaning bathrooms or picking cotton in the field.. how exactly do they get these jobs if they need proof that they can work in America? How are they paying taxes (and the ITIN was already discussed in the other thread posted above so don't bother using that excuse again).


You mean like this???


https://www.ny.gov/programs/tu.....cholarship
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amother




Coral


Post  Wed, Jan 30 2019, 10:20 am
PinkFridge wrote:
I don't want to bring us back to the whole Nazi thing but there's going to be a fascinating interview on WJR Detroit radio with a 97 (IIRC) y.o. Jewish German academic who escaped in the late 30s and is - happily - having his German citizenship officially restored. Interesting that he wants it back. The host, who himself is American born to German (gentile) parents, sounded surprised in his blurb.


I would think that healthcare and access to higher education alone would make people want EU citizenship. I would if I could, but my family all left Europe by the end of the 19th century.
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amother




Amber


Post  Wed, Jan 30 2019, 10:32 am
simcha2 wrote:
You mean like this???


https://www.ny.gov/programs/tu.....cholarship


That is the biggest joke ever, it has so many restrictions that many people don't qualify and it requires you to stay in NY after you graduate for the same amount of time you were receiving this scholarship or you have to pay it back (making it a loan instead of a scholarship) which is not the case in the bill passed for illegal aliens.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/0.....-york.html

https://nycfuture.org/research.....cholarship
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PinkFridge




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jan 30 2019, 10:37 am
amother wrote:
I would think that healthcare and access to higher education alone would make people want EU citizenship. I would if I could, but my family all left Europe by the end of the 19th century.


No, he seems to be a grateful American citizen, and veteran to boot.
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simcha2




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jan 30 2019, 10:41 am
amother wrote:
That is the biggest joke ever, it has so many restrictions that many people don't qualify and it requires you to stay in NY after you graduate for the same amount of time you were receiving this scholarship or you have to pay it back (making it a loan instead of a scholarship) which is not the case in the bill passed for illegal aliens.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/0.....-york.html

https://nycfuture.org/research.....cholarship


Ok, I'll speak slow.

The act you keep referencing didn't give anything extra to illegal immigrants. It gives them the same.

You wrote with disdain about socialist countries (but failed to give an example when asked) and about illegal immigrants who want everything handed to them on a platter. Then complain when the platter handed to you isn't big enough or socialist enough.

Ridiculous.

(And stop hiding behind amother)
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amother




Amber


Post  Wed, Jan 30 2019, 11:05 am
simcha2 wrote:
Ok, I'll speak slow.

The act you keep referencing didn't give anything extra to illegal immigrants. It gives them the same.

You wrote with disdain about socialist countries (but failed to give an example when asked) and about illegal immigrants who want everything handed to them on a platter. Then complain when the platter handed to you isn't big enough or socialist enough.

Ridiculous.

(And stop hiding behind amother)

Read what I wrote carefully without putting words into my mouth or twisting what I say as you keep doing or taking it out of context. I have made it clear that- Illegal aliens have no right to be in the country and have no right to get any benefits let alone benefits that American citizens don't get. And many American citizens don't get scholarships or financial aid so you are being disingenuous by claiming otherwise. But if you want to give all these benefits to illegal aliens then first give it to American citizens then see if there is anything left over for anyone in the country illegally, not the other way around. Otherwise there is no benefit to being a citizen or legal immigrant so not sure why anyone would want that status when you can just do whatever you want and get whatever you as an illegal alien. But we are going in circles here so don't bother repeating your rhetoric that illegal aliens get the same thing as citizens because they get more than many citizens get and I won't respond to your nonsense anymore.
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simcha2




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jan 30 2019, 12:17 pm
amother wrote:
Read what I wrote carefully without putting words into my mouth or twisting what I say as you keep doing or taking it out of context. I have made it clear that- Illegal aliens have no right to be in the country and have no right to get any benefits let alone benefits that American citizens don't get. And many American citizens don't get scholarships or financial aid so you are being disingenuous by claiming otherwise. But if you want to give all these benefits to illegal aliens then first give it to American citizens then see if there is anything left over for anyone in the country illegally, not the other way around. Otherwise there is no benefit to being a citizen or legal immigrant so not sure why anyone would want that status when you can just do whatever you want and get whatever you as an illegal alien. But we are going in circles here so don't bother repeating your rhetoric that illegal aliens get the same thing as citizens because they get more than many citizens get and I won't respond to your nonsense anymore.



That is the first time you are stating the bolded.

The point you keep hammering on is that illegal immigrants receive things that legal immigrants.

You have not brought a single piece of evidence to support this. You quote the Peralta act.

It does include a provision for a DREAM fund open to children of immigrants (doesn't make mention of status) and also includes the following provision Neither the
commission nor the fund would receive state funding

Ie, it is not government funded.

You have failed and failed to prove your point. Hence calling everything you write rhetoric, and not fact.

If you want say that illegal immigrants should not have access to any services at all. That is a valid opinion. But claiming undocumented aliens receive benefits you don't is simply false.

And using another for this discussion is cowardly.
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Fox




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jan 30 2019, 1:14 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
Thomas Sowell is one of the biggest economic thinkers in America, he's not just some "self publishing guy selling books online".

Please tell me I didn't read what I thought I read. Please tell me that someone didn't actually refer to Thomas Sowell, who is often lauded as America's greatest living philosopher, as a "guy selling books online."

And how odd that no one infatuated with that hateful Racism Watchdog account on Twitter responded with any barks, woofs, or chasing squirrels . . .
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amother




Coral


Post  Wed, Jan 30 2019, 1:29 pm
amother wrote:
Read what I wrote carefully without putting words into my mouth or twisting what I say as you keep doing or taking it out of context. I have made it clear that- Illegal aliens have no right to be in the country and have no right to get any benefits let alone benefits that American citizens don't get. And many American citizens don't get scholarships or financial aid so you are being disingenuous by claiming otherwise. But if you want to give all these benefits to illegal aliens then first give it to American citizens then see if there is anything left over for anyone in the country illegally, not the other way around. Otherwise there is no benefit to being a citizen or legal immigrant so not sure why anyone would want that status when you can just do whatever you want and get whatever you as an illegal alien. But we are going in circles here so don't bother repeating your rhetoric that illegal aliens get the same thing as citizens because they get more than many citizens get and I won't respond to your nonsense anymore.


Really?

Illegal immigrants are not entitled to Medicaid except for "emergency" conditions. That does include chemotherapy for cancer. It does not include insulin for insulin-dependent diabetics. Is that the same level of health care that you think is given to US citizens?

Except to a limited extent in Florida, New York, Nebraska, Florida and Illinois, illegal immigrants cannot hold professional licenses. So they cannot be doctors, lawyers, nurses, CPAs, cosmetologists, land surveyors, electricians, plumbers, insurance agents, architects, or a host of other professions.

Illegal immigrants are not entitled to social security, or to Medicare.

They can't vote.

Only 12 states allow them to have drivers' licenses.

They cannot get federal loans or aid for college, and are not eligible for in-state tuition in most of the country. (As an example, in-state tuition at UMass Amherst is about $14,000; out of state is a little over $30,000)

Not to mention the constant risk of being exported, in many cases to a country they have no real relationship to.

You really think that's such a great position to be in?
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Fox




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jan 30 2019, 2:01 pm
simcha2 wrote:
As I've posted many times, I'm a registered Republican and consider myself an independent. I just think Trump is morally bankrupt and incompetent and that pushes me to the left.

You may be entirely correct that Trump is morally bankrupt. I have no idea. I don't sense that he is incompetent -- or at least any more incompetent than other Presidents we've had. Those are positions that we've been debating since mid-2016.

However, I'd like to address the underlying issue that many of us have with the left, and this is an issue that we would have even if the left weren't drifting toward fairly extreme anti-Semitism.

Most people who identify themselves as liberals or leftists are kind, compassionate people. They see suffering, and they want to ameliorate it. That's a good impulse, and it's an impulse that defines klal Yisroel.

The problem is that there are always consequences, and sometimes a kind act in the moment leads to horrific consequences. As we approach Purim, we are reminded of this: Shaul HaMelech was ordered by Hashem to wipe out all the Amalekites, but he spared Agog out of mercy -- thus leading to Haman.

Several posters have mentioned various foreign entanglements where the U.S. has intervened, ultimately leading to a far worse situation. What is important to note, though, is that often those interventions included a significant moral imperative to end some sort of immediate suffering or promote something that seemed good at the time.

I can't begin to count the number of situations in which people on the left demanded that the U.S. "do something" about a particular problem in the world -- or a home.

But too often, "doing something" comes back to haunt us, both at home and abroad.

Let's talk about illegal immigration. I am by no means a hard-liner on immigration, and I've written about it at length. However, it is undeniable that lax enforcement of immigration laws on our southern border has the unintended effect of promoting cartel violence, human trafficking, rape, and child abuse of various sorts.

Right now, the border with Mexico and rhetoric welcoming illegal immigrants is like an open swimming pool without a lifeguard; it's an attractive danger. In fact, as VP, Joe Biden went on a trip to Central America to tell everyone to stay home -- it is simply too dangerous to make the trek through Mexico.

Or let's talk about various social services. Nobody wants people going without shelter, food, or basic necessities, though we might define them differently. But black Americans, who were able to survive slavery, the sharecropping system, Jim Crow laws, and unimaginable minor forms of discrimination have had their families decimated by government programs that made it harder to escape poverty than to stay poor.

Or let's talk about the effect of the 1994 Violent Crimes Act on minority communities. It seemed reasonable to everyone -- get those "super-predators" off the streets. But because of quirks in various state laws and prosecutorial priorities, it ended up disproportionately sending black men to prison. And now we've discovered that had an unintended cost: communities without men -- even bad men -- lose their boys to crime and gangs. Black lives matter? Not in Chicago, where 80 percent of homicide victims are black males -- almost all killed by other black males.

My point is this:

It's easy to accuse conservatives and libertarians as lacking in compassion. But many of us have seen repeated evidence that actions that appear to be compassionate often aren't. Such actions may help people sleep at night and feel good about themselves, but they ignore any of the unpleasant consequences or side effects.

Writer Michael Malice has repeatedly used the line that, "Conservatism is progressivism driving the speed limit." I think that's a very good definition and actually something to be proud of. Yes, it might feel good in the moment to drive at 100 mph in pursuit of justice, kindness, and compassion. However, speed kills, and arriving safely at a destination means considering all the factors and slowing down to accommodate those factors.

Good people want to end suffering. No question or disagreement there. Misplaced compassion and/or lack of care for the consequences, though, are worse than no compassion at all.
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simcha2




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jan 30 2019, 2:14 pm
Fox wrote:
You may be entirely correct that Trump is morally bankrupt. I have no idea. I don't sense that he is incompetent -- or at least any more incompetent than other Presidents we've had. Those are positions that we've been debating since mid-2016.

However, I'd like to address the underlying issue that many of us have with the left, and this is an issue that we would have even if the left weren't drifting toward fairly extreme anti-Semitism.

Most people who identify themselves as liberals or leftists are kind, compassionate people. They see suffering, and they want to ameliorate it. That's a good impulse, and it's an impulse that defines klal Yisroel.

The problem is that there are always consequences, and sometimes a kind act in the moment leads to horrific consequences. As we approach Purim, we are reminded of this: Shaul HaMelech was ordered by Hashem to wipe out all the Amalekites, but he spared Agog out of mercy -- thus leading to Haman.

Several posters have mentioned various foreign entanglements where the U.S. has intervened, ultimately leading to a far worse situation. What is important to note, though, is that often those interventions included a significant moral imperative to end some sort of immediate suffering or promote something that seemed good at the time.

I can't begin to count the number of situations in which people on the left demanded that the U.S. "do something" about a particular problem in the world -- or a home.

But too often, "doing something" comes back to haunt us, both at home and abroad.

Let's talk about illegal immigration. I am by no means a hard-liner on immigration, and I've written about it at length. However, it is undeniable that lax enforcement of immigration laws on our southern border has the unintended effect of promoting cartel violence, human trafficking, rape, and child abuse of various sorts.

Right now, the border with Mexico and rhetoric welcoming illegal immigrants is like an open swimming pool without a lifeguard; it's an attractive danger. In fact, as VP, Joe Biden went on a trip to Central America to tell everyone to stay home -- it is simply too dangerous to make the trek through Mexico.

Or let's talk about various social services. Nobody wants people going without shelter, food, or basic necessities, though we might define them differently. But black Americans, who were able to survive slavery, the sharecropping system, Jim Crow laws, and unimaginable minor forms of discrimination have had their families decimated by government programs that made it harder to escape poverty than to stay poor.

Or let's talk about the effect of the 1994 Violent Crimes Act on minority communities. It seemed reasonable to everyone -- get those "super-predators" off the streets. But because of quirks in various state laws and prosecutorial priorities, it ended up disproportionately sending black men to prison. And now we've discovered that had an unintended cost: communities without men -- even bad men -- lose their boys to crime and gangs. Black lives matter? Not in Chicago, where 80 percent of homicide victims are black males -- almost all killed by other black males.

My point is this:

It's easy to accuse conservatives and libertarians as lacking in compassion. But many of us have seen repeated evidence that actions that appear to be compassionate often aren't. Such actions may help people sleep at night and feel good about themselves, but they ignore any of the unpleasant consequences or side effects.

Writer Michael Malice has repeatedly used the line that, "Conservatism is progressivism driving the speed limit." I think that's a very good definition and actually something to be proud of. Yes, it might feel good in the moment to drive at 100 mph in pursuit of justice, kindness, and compassion. However, speed kills, and arriving safely at a destination means considering all the factors and slowing down to accommodate those factors.

Good people want to end suffering. No question or disagreement there. Misplaced compassion and/or lack of care for the consequences, though, are worse than no compassion at all.


Look, this is a tangent without end.

I agree there are always unintentional consequences. But I think they are more excusable than cruel intentional consequences.

If you separate young children from their parents and have zero way to keep track and reunite them, then it's a foreseeable consequence that you won't be able to reunite them.

(I know you've argued at length that it's worth it to avoid trafficking and I'm not going down that route. I'm talking about families purposefully separated to act as a deterrent as described by Sessions and others).

So, you can argue the speed limit, I'll argue purposeful cruelty.
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Fox




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jan 30 2019, 2:17 pm
simcha2 wrote:
So, you can argue the speed limit, I'll argue purposeful cruelty.

Then please show your sources for arguing that the examples I've given are rooted in purposeful cruelty.
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simcha2




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jan 30 2019, 2:19 pm
Fox wrote:
Then please show your sources for arguing that the examples I've given are rooted in purposeful cruelty.


After you show there example I have, isn't.

Your example were of unintended consequences, I don't understand what you're asking.
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amother




Aqua


Post  Wed, Jan 30 2019, 2:30 pm
Fox wrote:
You may be entirely correct that Trump is morally bankrupt. I have no idea. I don't sense that he is incompetent -- or at least any more incompetent than other Presidents we've had. Those are positions that we've been debating since mid-2016.

However, I'd like to address the underlying issue that many of us have with the left, and this is an issue that we would have even if the left weren't drifting toward fairly extreme anti-Semitism.

Most people who identify themselves as liberals or leftists are kind, compassionate people. They see suffering, and they want to ameliorate it. That's a good impulse, and it's an impulse that defines klal Yisroel.

The problem is that there are always consequences, and sometimes a kind act in the moment leads to horrific consequences. As we approach Purim, we are reminded of this: Shaul HaMelech was ordered by Hashem to wipe out all the Amalekites, but he spared Agog out of mercy -- thus leading to Haman.

Several posters have mentioned various foreign entanglements where the U.S. has intervened, ultimately leading to a far worse situation. What is important to note, though, is that often those interventions included a significant moral imperative to end some sort of immediate suffering or promote something that seemed good at the time.

I can't begin to count the number of situations in which people on the left demanded that the U.S. "do something" about a particular problem in the world -- or a home.

But too often, "doing something" comes back to haunt us, both at home and abroad.

Let's talk about illegal immigration. I am by no means a hard-liner on immigration, and I've written about it at length. However, it is undeniable that lax enforcement of immigration laws on our southern border has the unintended effect of promoting cartel violence, human trafficking, rape, and child abuse of various sorts.

Right now, the border with Mexico and rhetoric welcoming illegal immigrants is like an open swimming pool without a lifeguard; it's an attractive danger. In fact, as VP, Joe Biden went on a trip to Central America to tell everyone to stay home -- it is simply too dangerous to make the trek through Mexico.

Or let's talk about various social services. Nobody wants people going without shelter, food, or basic necessities, though we might define them differently. But black Americans, who were able to survive slavery, the sharecropping system, Jim Crow laws, and unimaginable minor forms of discrimination have had their families decimated by government programs that made it harder to escape poverty than to stay poor.

Or let's talk about the effect of the 1994 Violent Crimes Act on minority communities. It seemed reasonable to everyone -- get those "super-predators" off the streets. But because of quirks in various state laws and prosecutorial priorities, it ended up disproportionately sending black men to prison. And now we've discovered that had an unintended cost: communities without men -- even bad men -- lose their boys to crime and gangs. Black lives matter? Not in Chicago, where 80 percent of homicide victims are black males -- almost all killed by other black males.

My point is this:

It's easy to accuse conservatives and libertarians as lacking in compassion. But many of us have seen repeated evidence that actions that appear to be compassionate often aren't. Such actions may help people sleep at night and feel good about themselves, but they ignore any of the unpleasant consequences or side effects.

Writer Michael Malice has repeatedly used the line that, "Conservatism is progressivism driving the speed limit." I think that's a very good definition and actually something to be proud of. Yes, it might feel good in the moment to drive at 100 mph in pursuit of justice, kindness, and compassion. However, speed kills, and arriving safely at a destination means considering all the factors and slowing down to accommodate those factors.

Good people want to end suffering. No question or disagreement there. Misplaced compassion and/or lack of care for the consequences, though, are worse than no compassion at all.


I agree with you that compassionate people sometimes fail to see issues in context and to look for unintended consequences. But I think that the actual policy-makers and politicians of the left do know better, and are looking only to fulfill their own quests for power.
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Fox




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jan 30 2019, 2:34 pm
simcha2 wrote:
After you show there example I have, isn't.

Your example were of unintended consequences, I don't understand what you're asking.

I am claiming that while immigration law is seriously and significantly flawed, laxity in enforcing it leads to excessive and unintended cruelty.

To that end, I have repeatedly cited Brandon Darby's work over the past decade. You can look up any of his articles or see interviews with him on YouTube. I have cited VP Biden's trip to Central America during the Obama administration.

I have also cited other examples of unintended cruelty, but you seem most interested in the illegal immigration argument.

You are claiming that immigration law and the decision to enforce it is rooted in purposeful cruelty, right?

Therefore, I am interested in what evidence you have found that specific individuals, organizations, or agencies are acting with "purposeful cruelty" -- meaning that their intent is based on the desire to inflict cruelty on individuals or groups.
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simcha2




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jan 30 2019, 2:38 pm
Fox wrote:
I am claiming that while immigration law is seriously and significantly flawed, laxity in enforcing it leads to excessive and unintended cruelty.

To that end, I have repeatedly cited Brandon Darby's work over the past decade. You can look up any of his articles or see interviews with him on YouTube. I have cited VP Biden's trip to Central America during the Obama administration.

I have also cited other examples of unintended cruelty, but you seem most interested in the illegal immigration argument.

You are claiming that immigration law and the decision to enforce it is rooted in purposeful cruelty, right?

Therefore, I am interested in what evidence you have found that specific individuals, organizations, or agencies are acting with "purposeful cruelty" -- meaning that their intent is based on the desire to inflict cruelty on individuals or groups.


Officials were very open that separation of children was to act as a deterrent. That is by definition purposeful cruelty.

(I have to drive a relative somewhere, so I'm signing off... not running away)
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simcha2




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jan 30 2019, 2:39 pm
amother wrote:
I agree with you that compassionate people sometimes fail to see issues in context and to look for unintended consequences. But I think that the actual policy-makers and politicians of the left do know better, and are looking only to fulfill their own quests for power.



Examples and proof, no rhetoric.

And why, amother?
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