Does this piece of trash deserve more rights?!

Cheiny

Wed, Jan 30 2019, 1:54 pm

https://www.vosizneias.com/315.....ghts/

Quote:

A Muslim inmate scheduled to be executed next week in Alabama said the state is violating his rights by requiring a Christian prison chaplain to stand near him as he is put to death, according to a lawsuit filed Tuesday.

Dominique Ray is scheduled to be executed Feb. 7 for the fatal stabbing of 15-year-old Tiffany Harville in 1995. Attorneys for the 42-year-old inmate have asked a federal judge to stay his execution while the court considers his claim.

Attorneys for Ray said the prison warden refused Ray’s request to have a Muslim imam stand in the execution chamber instead of the prison chaplain during the planned lethal injection. They said the warden also refused his request to not have the chaplain present during his execution.

saw50st8

Wed, Jan 30 2019, 1:59 pm

Prisoners have certain rights and their lawyers should be fighting for them. It's the backbone of our justice system.

Do I, on a personal level, care that he wants his spiritual advisor when he's a rapist and murderer? No. But he has the legal right to fight for his rights and that I support.

FranticFrummie

Wed, Jan 30 2019, 2:00 pm

I don't see the need to have a chaplain there at all, if you've stated that you don't want one.

Turn it around in your head. If you were CVS about to be executed, would you want an imam quoting the Koran over you? I think not.

Either allow the spiritual advisor of choice, or allow the option to not have one at all. Insisting on an Xian one does not sound legal at all to me.

ETA: I have to confess I would still be temped to rub a little bacon fat on his last meal. Wink

Cheiny

Wed, Jan 30 2019, 2:41 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

I can’t relate, because if I believe enough in having a spiritual advisor with me, I’d never consider doing the crime in my wildest dreams....can’t have it both ways in my opinion.... if you’re religious, you don’t commit that type of heinous crime, and if you commit that heinous crime you’re not religious and deserve, as a consequence to your despicable crime, to have your right to suddenly find religion, to be taken away... he should be treated with the same level of compassion as he extended to his victim.

leah233

Wed, Jan 30 2019, 2:42 pm

I never thought I would agree with a murderer and rapist who is asking for more rights and privileges but in this case I do.

Once you have a system where a chaplain is there at the time of execution (not a bad idea in itself) a person should be able to get one of his own religion and choice

Last edited by leah233 on Thu, Jan 31 2019, 9:09 am; edited 1 time in total

Cheiny

Wed, Jan 30 2019, 2:42 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

Agree with your last comment. 😋 I was thinking, he should have a pig placed next to him at the end, not a religious adviser.

saw50st8

Wed, Jan 30 2019, 2:53 pm

Cheiny wrote:

Are you against Jewish criminals getting kosher food in prison if they committed heinous crimes? What level of crime should have you lose your rights to religious accommodations?

naturalmom5

Wed, Jan 30 2019, 2:59 pm

Cheiney... Emotionally I agree with you 100%. Intellectually there is a concept of tshuva.
There should be a Imam that says loud and clear, that the murderer needs to express remorse. Otherwise no clergy person at all.

Also, technically speaking the Imam believes in 1 G-d. For the good of the world thats always better than an oved Avoda Zara..

SixOfWands

Wed, Jan 30 2019, 2:59 pm

Cheiny wrote:

So, you believe that there are some things that people can do and not be able to do teshuva.

Is that limited to murder?

What about rape? Do you believe that Jews in prison for rape should be denied kosher food on the grounds that they couldn't possibly be religious. Denied the right to tefillin as well?

Are there any other crimes that warrant that?

And why do you think its OK to require that a Christian clergyman be in the chamber with him? What purpose does it serve for you?

Fox

Wed, Jan 30 2019, 3:10 pm

I'm gonna out-liberal the liberals here and say that I find it hard to concentrate on the issue of the chaplain because I am so opposed to the death penalty as it is currently administered.

While the Torah mandates a death sentence for various crimes, we're also told that a Sandhedrin that puts to death more than a single person in 70 years is bloodthirsty.

I certainly haven't researched the specifics of this case, and this gentleman probably wasn't arrested, tried, and convicted because he was at home, reading his Quaran, at the time of the crime.

That said, there have been so many cases where there have found to have been serious prosecutorial misconduct; false jailhouse confessions; mistaken identities, etc. It seems like every month or two, I read about someone here in Illinois who has been freed from a long sentence not on a technicality, but because exculpatory evidence was suppressed or something similar.

Assuming he's going to be executed, though, I find it a little hard to understand why the prison warden can't simply appoint a Muslim chaplain. I am sure there would be plenty of Muslim organizations willing to bear any costs associated.

Kiwi13

Wed, Jan 30 2019, 3:18 pm

Specific cases and people aside, I think it's wrong to force someone to leave this world under the "spiritual care" of an advisor or clergy member that does not share their religious beliefs. I actually feel strongly about this. What if God forbid someone is falsely accused/framed? It's happened before in the US. And as others pointed out, what about teshuva? I don't buy the excuse that "if they cared about their faith before the crime, they wouldn't have this problem."

ALSO: Inconsistencies don't generally mean hypocrisy. You can believe very strongly in Hashem and keep Shabbos perfectly and still struggle in kashrus. There are more extreme versions of that, too. And for anyone who asks why a convicted criminal "deserves" kosher food, you absolutely cannot compare a crime committed in the heat of the moment, even murder, to the ongoing commitment to kashrus. It's not the same thing AT ALL and one doesn't negate the other.

debsey

Wed, Jan 30 2019, 3:19 pm

As much as I abhor this guy, I think anyone about to die should be able to have the spiritual adviser of his choice there.

The world will be a better place when he's no longer in it. But he should have the right to make his peace with his Maker based on his own traditions.

FranticFrummie

Wed, Jan 30 2019, 3:19 pm

I'm mostly with you, Fox.

I do think there's a place for the death penalty, but only in cases with an uncooerced confession AND double checked DNA evidence. Anything short of that should be left as an open question. If further evidence comes up, then the case can be revisited at that time.

I absolutely do believe that anyone can do teshuvah right up until the split second before their death, but that doesn't mean that they escape punishment here on earth. As you sow, so shall you reap.

Raisin

Wed, Jan 30 2019, 3:27 pm

I don't understand how a frum person can call a person who was created by Hashem a piece of trash, whatever his crimes.

I agree with Fox. I personally met someone who spent many years on death row for a crime she never committed. She was convicted on someone elses testimony (the person who actually committed the murder) It seems many prosecutors and police are not actually motivated by justice, but just want to find SOMEONE guilty, even if its not the correct someone.

DNA evidence can be planted so even that is not full proof Frantic frummie. I guess in a case where there are many witnesses there is a case to be argued for the death penalty.

Amarante

Wed, Jan 30 2019, 3:42 pm

I am just going to add that civil liberties are protected for EVERYONE because of hard cases. One supports rights of religion for everyone because it's a slippery slope - especially for minority religions.

I am not even understanding an argument against this. Would one be okay with requiring that a Xtian minister be present at the execution of a Jewish person? Not quite the same but as I recall, the Mormon Church was excoriated for doing baptisms of Jews after their death without their knowledge or consent or that of their families - and that wasn't even "state action".

That he is a convicted criminal is meaningless in terms of his still having certain due process rights.

However, in this case, it's not even a difficult constitution or moral issue. The First Amendment couldn't be clearer

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof and this has been extended to action by any State.

And if requiring that a Xtian be present at an execution isn't a law respecting the establishment of the Xtian religion and prohibiting someone's free exercise, I don't know what is.

Ravenclaw

Wed, Jan 30 2019, 3:53 pm

I agree with Fox here. People say that the Torah supports capital punishment, but not at all the way it is done in America.
An example: Reuven runs into a room with a knife yelling “ I am going to kill you, Shimon!”. Levi is witnessing this and hears yelling, then Reuven comes out with a bloody knife and Shimon is dead.
According to Halacha if Reuven denies it, that is still not enough evidence to give him the death penalty.

Laiya

Wed, Jan 30 2019, 4:01 pm

Cheiny wrote:

Addressing your last line. Seeking revenge is a natural impulse. But, even if we were to somehow know with 100% absolute certainty that he is guilty of the crime, we still need to treat people humanely. A murderer's conduct can't dictate our own.

Cheiny

Thu, Jan 31 2019, 12:47 am

Raisin wrote:

According to your argument Cheiny no Jewish prisoner would be allowed kosher food. (who are we to decide which aveira is worse then an other?)

How utterly pathetic. The subject here is a religious leader with him at the time of death, not kosher food. Oy. Can't Believe It

Cheiny

Thu, Jan 31 2019, 12:48 am

Laiya wrote:

I don’t believe that denying him his religious mentor is inhumane.