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Does this piece of trash deserve more rights?!
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Amarante




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 31 2019, 3:02 pm
The US is in pretty terrible company in terms of still having capital punishment and even in the US capital punishment has been abolished or effectively abolished in most progressive states.

The only non repressive nation which executed people besides the US is Japan.

Countries which had executions in the last year with China appearing to be the leader.


Afghanistan, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Belarus, Botswana, Chad, China, Egypt, Equatorial Guinea, India, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Japan, Jordan, Kuwait, Malaysia, Nigeria, North Korea, Oman, Pakistan, Palestinian Territories, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, Somalia, South Sudan, Sudan, Taiwan, Thailand (2018), United Arab Emirates, USA, Vietnam and Yemen
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 31 2019, 3:16 pm
A different article about this case says that he was arrested for this murder while already in jail for the murders of two other teenagers.

Sometimes people are falsely accused, but I really doubt he was falsely accused of multiple unrelated murders.

I do agree that he shouldn't have to have a Christian chaplain at the execution.
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Cheiny




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 31 2019, 4:38 pm
ora_43 wrote:
A different article about this case says that he was arrested for this murder while already in jail for the murders of two other teenagers.

Sometimes people are falsely accused, but I really doubt he was falsely accused of multiple unrelated murders.

I do agree that he shouldn't have to have a Christian chaplain at the execution.


Sometimes it seems people have just as much sympathy for the murderer as they do the victim!
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Cheiny




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 31 2019, 4:38 pm
shyshira wrote:
He is being executed. What level of compassion is that?


It’s the law. What compassion does he deserve?
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Cheiny




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 31 2019, 4:39 pm
shirachadasha wrote:
In yahadus we believe in the possibility of teshuva until a person's last breath.


He’s a [gentile], this is his third murder. I think Teshuva is highly unlikely.
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Cheiny




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 31 2019, 4:40 pm
leah233 wrote:
To all those who are saying that the Torah would not approve of the American death penalty, Rav Moshe Feinstein paskened otherwise.

There is a famous letter (printed in the Igros Moshe) which he wrote to NYS Governor Hugh Carey who had asked him how the Torah views a secular court system giving the death penalty for murder. Rav Moshe answered that the Torah obligates non-Jews to have a justice system and recognizes their rights to give the death penalty for a crime like murder but it does not require them to administer it.

He doesn't say anything about them needing two witnesses etc.


Thank you.
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Cheiny




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 31 2019, 4:42 pm
moonstone wrote:
Really? That bothers you? I think the OP was too kind. I consider someone who commits this kind of crime a subhuman piece of ****, and I really couldn't care less if his religious rights are ignored while he's rightly being put to death. He should have gotten religious a minute before he stabbed that poor girl to death. What about her right to live, to not be murdered?


Bravo! Applause Applause Applause
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Cheiny




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 31 2019, 4:43 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
As Jews, we should all remember Ethel Rosenberg. Its is at least arguable that Julius Rosenberg was guilty, but pretty certain that Ethel was not, and was only prosecuted to force Julius to confess.

Watch The Thin Blue Line, a documentary about a man on death row. The filmmaker was able to prove that he could not have committed the murder; he was subsequently released.

I believe that the death penalty is morally wrong. But even if I didn't, the fact that any judicial system can make mistakes is enough to make me say that it shouldn't exist.


So they should’ve kept this beauty alive to try for a fourth murder? Can't Believe It
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Cheiny




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 31 2019, 4:45 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
I've no problem with a life sentence without parole.

The death penalty probably is not a deterrent. I suppose that there is always a risk of a prisoner killing another prisoner, but other than that, there is almost no risk of repeated murder in prison.

And I agree with your last point.


Sure, that way we taxpayers can pay millions to keep them alive, so they can eat 3 squares and watch tv for the rest of their lives. No thanks.
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Sebastian




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 31 2019, 4:47 pm
Cheiny wrote:
Sure, that way we taxpayers can pay millions to keep them alive, so they can eat 3 squares and watch tv for the rest of their lives. No thanks.


the appeal process and carrying out the actual death sentence costs too.

As a libertarianish person I'm against giving the government the right to kill someone. But the death penalty is useful to getting a criminal to agree to a plea bargain so....
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 31 2019, 4:48 pm
Cheiny wrote:
Sometimes it seems people have just as much sympathy for the murderer as they do the victim!


Really.

Believing that the United States should not force Christianity on anyone, and that he should be executed without Christian clergy, is showing sympathy for him.

You haven't told us who else should be deprived of freedom of religion.

Jonathan Pollard guilty to spying for and providing top-secret classified information to Israel. There are those in the US intelligence community who believe that he endangered more US spies than anyone in history. Should his freedom of religion have been denied?

What about Baruch Lanner, the convicted pedophile?
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Iymnok




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 31 2019, 4:50 pm
I think it’s horrible to force him to face clergy of a different religion while he’s dying. Having your religious mentor watch is not helpful. Most religions have some form of last rites and clergyman of a different religion cannot perform them correctly.
It is not a separation of church and state to force a person to face a foreign religious leader at such a vulnerable time.
This is not a trial and prisoners have rights. Regardless of his crime and guilt, another religion should not be forced on him and he should have the support of his own religion in his last moments.
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shyshira




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 31 2019, 4:52 pm
Cheiny wrote:
It’s the law. What compassion does he deserve?


You raised compassion - as said he's getting too much.

I'm really scratching my head as to why you started this thread.

Are you looking to debate the constitution?

The maintenance of religious rights for prisoners should be important to all religious people.

Why do you think vos iz neias posted this story?
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Amarante




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 31 2019, 4:53 pm
Capital punishment is actually not particularly effective in terms of deterrence nor is it cost effective in terms of studies that I have read.

The cost of the State mounting a capital trial (I.e. one with potential death sentence) far exceeds the cost of incarceration especially when one adds in the appeal process which is necessary.

Far better for the State to negotiate a plea deal in which the sentence is life without parole or a lengthy enough sentence so that society would be in no danger when the old person is released.

If criminals actually thought about consequences in a rational manner, they probably wouldn't be criminals.

Conditions in a maximum security prison into which a lifer or dangerous felon is placed are so terrible that it is just an existence - it's certainly ample punishment for anyone.


Last edited by Amarante on Thu, Jan 31 2019, 4:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 31 2019, 4:53 pm
Cheiny wrote:
Sure, that way we taxpayers can pay millions to keep them alive, so they can eat 3 squares and watch tv for the rest of their lives. No thanks.


Yeah, being in prison is the LIFE. Great stuff. No clue why folks like Rubashkin tried so hard to get out. 3 squares. TV. What more could anyone want.

BTW, studies show that the cost of prosecuting a death penalty case, including costs of keeping a prisoner on death row, exceed the costs of other murder convictions.

In any case, I don't base everything on dollars and cents. Killing is wrong. Its no less wrong when done through government, by way of death penalty, than otherwise.
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Amarante




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 31 2019, 5:00 pm
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Really? All human beings are fine? What about murderers? Pedophiles? There are so many horrific crimes that sort of strip a person of their humanity, really.


Obviously some people are more deserving than others based on their conduct.

However a civilized society recognizes that even a criminal deserves certain dignities as a human being because to do otherwise lessens the moral fabric of that society.

At one time, the heads of prisoners were put on a post and hung in the town square. As a civilized society, we now provide a decent burial for a criminal because to do otherwise is shameful and degrading to society - not the criminal.
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Ravenclaw




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 31 2019, 6:41 pm
Cheiny wrote:
Sure, that way we taxpayers can pay millions to keep them alive, so they can eat 3 squares and watch tv for the rest of their lives. No thanks.


Oh ok. So now you are being honest—you aren’t worried that he will commit another murder, just that keeping him from doing so will be too expensive and inconvenient.
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Cheiny




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Feb 01 2019, 1:00 am
SixOfWands wrote:
Really.

Believing that the United States should not force Christianity on anyone, and that he should be executed without Christian clergy, is showing sympathy for him.

You haven't told us who else should be deprived of freedom of religion.

Jonathan Pollard guilty to spying for and providing top-secret classified information to Israel. There are those in the US intelligence community who believe that he endangered more US spies than anyone in history. Should his freedom of religion have been denied?

What about Baruch Lanner, the convicted pedophile?


So far, no one you’ve mentioned is a triple murderer...but keep trying.
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Cheiny




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Feb 01 2019, 1:03 am
Ravenclaw wrote:
Oh ok. So now you are being honest—you aren’t worried that he will commit another murder, just that keeping him from doing so will be too expensive and inconvenient.


Oh yeah, that’s it, I don’t care about his murdering anyone, just the cost and inconvenience of his prison stay....oy. Oy. Oy. Can't Believe It Can't Believe It Can't Believe It Can't Believe It Can't Believe It
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shyshira




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Feb 01 2019, 1:10 am
Cheiny wrote:
Oh yeah, that’s it, I don’t care about his murdering anyone, just the cost and inconvenience of his prison stay....oy. Oy. Oy. Can't Believe It Can't Believe It Can't Believe It Can't Believe It Can't Believe It


What do you think?
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