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Virgina governor says babies can be killed after delivery
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amother




Papaya


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 11:02 am
Unless the moms life is in grave danger I don’t see how someone can perform an abortion. It’s cold, cruel, heartless, and pure murder. I watched a few videos how an abortion is done and how one dr stopped performing them and my pro life opinion is even stronger. If you don’t want a kid protect yourself before doing the deed. If the kid was raped then she should take plan B the next morning.
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amother




Linen


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 11:05 am
amother wrote:
Unless the moms life is in grave danger I don’t see how someone can perform an abortion. It’s cold, cruel, heartless, and pure murder. I watched a few videos how an abortion is done and how one dr stopped performing them and my pro life opinion is even stronger. If you don’t want a kid protect yourself before doing the deed. If the kid was raped then she should take plan B the next morning.


Would your 12 year old know to take plan B if she were raped by her uncle, and told not to tell mommy a thing?
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gingertop




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 11:09 am
amother wrote:
Would your 12 year old know to take plan B if she were raped by her uncle, and told not to tell mommy a thing?


Completely off topic but there's a reason we tell our children that when someone tells them a secret they should come to us and the'll be rewarded... and why we keep the lines of communication open.

anyway, this example is a red herring because we're talking third trimester - read why abortions are done then: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.co.....63/4521013
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amother




Amber


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 11:11 am
gingertop wrote:
Completely off topic but there's a reason we tell our children that when someone tells them a secret they should come to us and the'll be rewarded... and why we keep the lines of communication open.

anyway, this example is a red herring because we're talking third trimester - read why abortions are done then: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.co.....63/4521013


Well if you are already outraged at abortions at week 4 - of course you are going to be outraged at abortions post 24 weeks.

Does the law require anybody against the own conscious to perform an abortion?
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sushilover




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 11:12 am
amother wrote:
That means no abortion. Ever. Life of mother? Irrelevant? Non-viable fetus? Who cares? 12 year old raped? Doesn't matter. 12 year old raped by her father? So sorry, but not our problem.

Both sides are dug in, and consider this a war.


Nowhere on the Republican platform does it say that abortions are never medically necessary. You are strawmanning.
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amother




cornflower


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 11:15 am
According to the CDC 45,789,558 babies were aborted between 1970-2015. All those babies were the product of rape? All the mothers lives were in danger?

I understand the saving of a mother's life, a non viable pregnancy, rape etc. But 45,788,588 babies? Let that number sink in..
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sushilover




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 11:18 am
amother wrote:
Would your 12 year old know to take plan B if she were raped by her uncle, and told not to tell mommy a thing?


A pregnant 12 year old is at a significant health risk and the baby can be aborted even after plan B is no longer an option.
It is not an elective abortion in most cases.
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gingertop




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 11:21 am
amother wrote:
Well if you are already outraged at abortions at week 4 - of course you are going to be outraged at abortions post 24 weeks.

Does the law require anybody against the own conscious to perform an abortion?


I'm not sure where you read about my outrage at abortions at week 4? And what is against conscious abortions?
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amother




Amber


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 11:22 am
amother wrote:
According to the CDC 45,789,558 babies were aborted between 1970-2015. All those babies were the product of rape? All the mothers lives were in danger?

I understand the saving of a mother's life, a non viable pregnancy, rape etc. But 45,788,588 babies? Let that number sink in..


How many live births between 1970 - 2015?
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amother




cornflower


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 11:30 am
amother wrote:
How many live births between 1970 - 2015?


Average of 3.5-4 million babies are born annually. And your point is??
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amother




Linen


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 11:30 am
sushilover wrote:
Nowhere on the Republican platform does it say that abortions are never medically necessary. You are strawmanning.


Again, it says, "[W]e assert the sanctity of human life and affirm that the unborn child has a fundamental right to life which cannot be infringed. We support a human life amendment to the Constitution and legislation to make clear that the Fourteenth Amendment’s protections apply to children before birth."

If the fetus -- unborn child -- has a "fundamental right to life which cannot be infringed," how can abortion ever be legal, even in the case of medical necessity to the mother?

While not the result of a law, consider the following case: a 27-year-old woman (with other children) was admitted to a Catholic hospital, 11 weeks pregnant. According to a hospital document, she had "right heart failure," and her doctors told her that if she continued with the pregnancy, her risk of mortality was "close to 100 percent." The patient, who was too ill to be moved to the operating room much less another hospital, agreed to an abortion. But there was a complication: She was at a Catholic hospital, and the official Catholic position is that there should still not be an abortion, even if it means that both the baby and mother would die.

Isn't that what saying that the fetus has a "fundamental right to live" means? I mean, there was a 1 in a 1000 chance the woman could make it, after all.

[In the case, the hospital administrator, who was a nun, agreed to allow an abortion. She was excommunicated by the Catholic Church. She was later reinstated.]
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gamanit




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 11:31 am
Kiwi13 wrote:
From a hospital policy standpoint this makes no sense... once the baby is born, that baby is no longer the patient of the woman's doctor(s). The baby has his/her own doctor(s) and is therefore a separate patient with a separate medical team who are invested in his/her care, separate from the mother's care! I am familiar with this concept, having given birth in the hospital and needing to consult the baby's medical team about the baby's medical care. Never once did my care or health-related decisions impact the baby's care or medical decisions, other than for matters of breastfeeding.

And regarding socialized healthcare and the road to euthanasia... this is a clear path to danger. Even if they don't mandate euthanasia, what will happen when they deny medical care to patients they want killed? What will happen when they deny pain relief and the patients' families can't bear to see them suffer? We're in dangerous territory.


That is not the case in the hospital I use. The baby has it's own pediatrician but the nurse is the same for mother and baby. It's called the "mother and baby" unit of the hospital.
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flowerpower




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 11:32 am
amother wrote:
According to the CDC 45,789,558 babies were aborted between 1970-2015. All those babies were the product of rape? All the mothers lives were in danger?

I understand the saving of a mother's life, a non viable pregnancy, rape etc. But 45,788,588 babies? Let that number sink in..


One dr performed 1,200 abortions in 4 years. I think that’s scary!!!
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gamanit




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 11:33 am
amother wrote:
Again, it says, "[W]e assert the sanctity of human life and affirm that the unborn child has a fundamental right to life which cannot be infringed. We support a human life amendment to the Constitution and legislation to make clear that the Fourteenth Amendment’s protections apply to children before birth."

If the fetus -- unborn child -- has a "fundamental right to life which cannot be infringed," how can abortion ever be legal, even in the case of medical necessity to the mother?

While not the result of a law, consider the following case: a 27-year-old woman (with other children) was admitted to a Catholic hospital, 11 weeks pregnant. According to a hospital document, she had "right heart failure," and her doctors told her that if she continued with the pregnancy, her risk of mortality was "close to 100 percent." The patient, who was too ill to be moved to the operating room much less another hospital, agreed to an abortion. But there was a complication: She was at a Catholic hospital, and the official Catholic position is that there should still not be an abortion, even if it means that both the baby and mother would die.

Isn't that what saying that the fetus has a "fundamental right to live" means? I mean, there was a 1 in a 1000 chance the woman could make it, after all.

[In the case, the hospital administrator, who was a nun, agreed to allow an abortion. She was excommunicated by the Catholic Church. She was later reinstated.]


What is the legal stance on an accidental rodef?
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amother




Linen


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 11:34 am
gingertop wrote:
Completely off topic but there's a reason we tell our children that when someone tells them a secret they should come to us and the'll be rewarded... and why we keep the lines of communication open.

anyway, this example is a red herring because we're talking third trimester - read why abortions are done then: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.co.....63/4521013


Thread drift.

But sadly, not everyone tells.

And not every parent listens.
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amother




Amber


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 11:35 am
amother wrote:
Average of 3.5-4 million babies are born annually. And your point is??


If you are throwing numbers around - what you just wrote was that for every 3 live births there is one abortion. Got to give number some context.

And I find that impossible to believe.
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amother




cornflower


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 11:39 am
[quote="amother"]If you are throwing numbers around - what you just wrote was that for every 3 live births there is one abortion. Got to give number some context.

And I find that impossible to believe.[/quot

I am not throwing around numbers. The abortion statistics came from the CDC and the live births from the US Dept. Of health. It is easier to pretend that numbers don't matter?

As I said, it's hard to digest a number like 45 million. But facts don't lie.
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sky




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 11:40 am
FranticFrummie wrote:
I'd like to look at this from a different angle.

I wonder what Kabbalah says about the neshama of the baby while in the womb, versus after the baby is born. What is the tukkun there for the child and the mother, and if we interfere is it an aveirah? On the other hand, is everything predestined anyway? Why do women even have miscarriages if all babies are supposed to be born?

I know, there are no answers for these questions. We'll only know after 120. I'm just thinking out loud.


A miscarriage is very different then a dr or mother choosing the child shouldn’t live.

What happens now when someone has a baby and buries or dumps the body. Are they all now always innocent because infants don’t have any rights.

Until what age of a child can you make these desicions? Recently a mother was charged with starving her newborn to death. Isn’t that her right under this?
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amother




Linen


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 11:47 am
amother wrote:
According to the CDC 45,789,558 babies were aborted between 1970-2015. All those babies were the product of rape? All the mothers lives were in danger?

I understand the saving of a mother's life, a non viable pregnancy, rape etc. But 45,788,588 babies? Let that number sink in..


Of course not.

But 99% or more were not late term.

The number of abortions has been decreasing over time. So while there were 1,210,883 in 1995, there were 820,151 and 638,169 in 2015.
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sushilover




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 11:49 am
amother wrote:
If it turns out that there are a spate of women demanding abortions at 37 weeks gestation because their families would "kill" them if they had a baby, and if these abortions are then routinely performed without further evaluation, then the legislation probably needs clarification.

But right now, I think its pretty clear.


Since when do you only want to make things illegal ONLY if there is a spate of them? I don't think we have ever had a spate of cannibalism or chinese water torture, yet they should still be illegal...

Regardless, I know you would like to convince yourself that late term abortions only happen when the fetus is not viable, or the mother's health is at risk. That is simply not true.

http://blog.secularprolife.org.....-term.html

Even though abortionists are very secretive about the reasons late term abortions are performed, we know for a fact that HUNDREDS of elective late term abortions are performed every year. Is that enough of a 'spate' for you?

Listen to the words of abortion providers, if you don't believe me:
Dr. Shelley Sella: "The women Sella treats fall into two categories: those who discover foetal abnormalities, and those with healthy, viable babies whose maternal circumstance mean they could not cope with the baby." https://www.irishtimes.com/new.....-1.1534659 (Note that this article is very sympathetic toward the abortionist, yet the fact remains- she aborts healthy babies because the mother can't cope with them.)

Dr. Warren Hern: "He doesn't share his clinic's statistics... but Hern has said he also performs late abortions for women who are not facing any grave medical outcome." http://www.dailycamera.com/new.....arren-hern (Again, a sympathetic article- He says protesters who just pray outside abortion clinics- without even interacting with the doctors or women seeking late term abortion- are "terrorists")

There are only 7 countries in the world who allow elective abortions after 20 weeks, including China and North Korea. It's shocking that the US is on that list.


Last edited by sushilover on Thu, Jan 31 2019, 12:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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