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Virgina governor says babies can be killed after delivery
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amother




Indigo


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 11:50 am
amother wrote:
If you are throwing numbers around - what you just wrote was that for every 3 live births there is one abortion. Got to give number some context.

And I find that impossible to believe.


233 + million live births in America 1970-2005

Since 1970 there has been about 44 million abortions.
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amother




Amber


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 11:53 am
[quote="amother"]
amother wrote:
If you are throwing numbers around - what you just wrote was that for every 3 live births there is one abortion. Got to give number some context.

And I find that impossible to believe.[/quot

I am not throwing around numbers. The abortion statistics came from the CDC and the live births from the US Dept. Of health. It is easier to pretend that numbers don't matter?

As I said, it's hard to digest a number like 45 million. But facts don't lie.


I didn't say you made up numbers. Throwing around numbers means your introduced numbers into the conversation.

Asking how many live births helps to digest the abortion number - as I said - gives it some context.

I don't know what "numbers don't matter" means anyway. The conversation about the permissibly of abortion at any state of pregnancy - is of no consequence to a conversation about third term abortions.

I'm still finding it hard to believe the ratio of live births to abortions... but it is what it is. I happen not to be particularly upset about it.
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amother




Amber


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 11:56 am
amother wrote:
233 + million live births in America 1970-2005

Since 1970 there has been about 44 million abortions.


Got it thanks. The ratio I calculated then was incorrect.
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amother




Indigo


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 11:57 am
Thought these stats were interesting. Most abortions do happen earlier then 3rd trimester even where allowed.

699,202 abortions reported to the CDC in 2012, 0.17% (1,186) were at or after 21 weeks and occurred in a state where it was possible to have a post viability abortion for any reason. 1.3% of abortions at or after 21 weeks are for anomalies and the vast majority are before 24 weeks. There are approximately 600 abortions a year after 24 weeks and most are for fetal anomalies.
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amother




cornflower


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 11:59 am
amother wrote:
233 + million live births in America 1970-2005

Since 1970 there has been about 44 million abortions.


Please check reliable sources such as CDC. Average birth rates yearly are 4 million or less. And is has been dipping the last few years
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amother




Linen


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 12:00 pm
sushilover wrote:
Since when do you only want to make things illegal ONLY if there is a spate of them? I don't think we have ever had a spate of cannibalism or chinese water torture, yet they should still be illegal...

Regardless, I know you would like to convince yourself that late term abortions only happen when the fetus is not viable, or the mother's health is at risk. That is simply not true.

http://blog.secularprolife.org.....-term.html

Even though abortionists are very secretive about the reasons late term abortions are performed, we know for a fact that HUNDREDS of elective late term abortions are performed every year. Is that enough of a 'spate' for you?

Listen to the words of abortion providers, if you don't believe me:
Dr. Shelley Sella: "The women Sella treats fall into two categories: those who discover foetal abnormalities, and those with healthy, viable babies whose maternal circumstance mean they could not cope with the baby." https://www.irishtimes.com/new.....-1.1534659 (Note that this article is very sympathetic toward the abortionist, yet the fact remains- she aborts healthy babies because the mother can't care for them.)

Dr. Warren Hern: "He doesn't share his clinic's statistics... but Hern has said he also performs late abortions for women who are not facing any grave medical outcome." http://www.dailycamera.com/new.....arren-hern (Again, a sympathetic article- He says protesters who just pray outside abortion clinics- without even interacting with the doctors or women seeking late term abortion- are "terrorists")

There are only 7 countries in the world who allow elective abortions after 20 weeks, including China and North Korea. It's shocking that the US is on that list.


You think that the "health of the mother" as determined by doctors is "elective"?

The conversation keeps shifting.

First we're talking about the risk of doctors aborting a woman who is in her 39th week of pregnancy because she says that her boyfriend would "kill" her if she had a baby. And claiming that if we don't put in protections, that's going to happen. Its very unlikely to.

To me, its like ranting that a Jewish woman shouldn't consult her rabbi if she's medically advised to abort due to a very high risk of maternal death, because the rabbi could tell her that just means that Hashem meant her to die. Its not going to happen. And either is a doctor aborting a woman in her 39th week with a healthy fetus because her boyfriend would "kill" her.

So then the argument shifts to health of the woman at 24 weeks, which is considered late term abortion, and you're acting as if they're both the same thing.
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sushilover




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 12:14 pm
amother wrote:
Again, it says, "[W]e assert the sanctity of human life and affirm that the unborn child has a fundamental right to life which cannot be infringed. We support a human life amendment to the Constitution and legislation to make clear that the Fourteenth Amendment’s protections apply to children before birth."

If the fetus -- unborn child -- has a "fundamental right to life which cannot be infringed," how can abortion ever be legal, even in the case of medical necessity to the mother?


Everyone has the fundamental right to life. Doesn't mean I can't let you drown if you are pulling me under water and putting my health at risk.

No Republican lawmaker is trying to make medically necessary abortions illegal.
Stop fear mongering.

On the other hand there are many pro-choicers who say it is 100% the mother's choice, any time, for any reason.
The democratic platform used to call for safe, legal and rare abortions. In 2016 they dropped the word "rare". Coincidence? The DNC invited the president of NARAL (National Abortion Rights Action League) proudly share that she aborted her child simply because it wasn't a convenient time. The audience applauded enthusiastically.
(BTW, NARAL recently criticized Nancy Pelosi for saying that she doesn't support abortion on demand)


So don't tell me that it 'both sides'.
The pro choice movement says it must be all or nothing.
The pro life movement is against elective abortions.
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sushilover




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 12:17 pm
amother wrote:
You think that the "health of the mother" as determined by doctors is "elective"?



Please read my posts more carefully. I have never said that.
An elective abortion is when the mother's health is not at risk and there is no fetal abnormality.
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amother




Indigo


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 12:18 pm
amother wrote:
Please check reliable sources such as CDC. Average birth rates yearly are 4 million or less. And is has been dipping the last few years
.

I did. These are exact cdc birth numbers per year.

1970 - 3,731,386
2005 - 4,138,349

Maybe my math was off on the sum total. Because based on this estimate 125 million births make more sense.
Then the ratios of abortions to births is way higher.
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sushilover




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 12:21 pm
amother wrote:
Thought these stats were interesting. Most abortions do happen earlier then 3rd trimester even where allowed.

699,202 abortions reported to the CDC in 2012, 0.17% (1,186) were at or after 21 weeks and occurred in a state where it was possible to have a post viability abortion for any reason. 1.3% of abortions at or after 21 weeks are for anomalies and the vast majority are before 24 weeks. There are approximately 600 abortions a year after 24 weeks and most are for fetal anomalies.

I'd like to see numbers for the bolded please.
If even one elective abortion is performed after 21 weeks, that is a tragedy beyond comprehension. Laws must be put in place that allow medically necessary abortions, but ban elective ones.
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amother




cornflower


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 12:22 pm
amother wrote:
.

I did. These are exact cdc birth numbers per year.


35 years time 4 million is????
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amother




Indigo


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 12:26 pm
sushilover wrote:
I'd like to see numbers for the bolded please.
If even one elective abortion is performed after 21 weeks, that is a tragedy beyond comprehension. Laws must be put in place that allow medically necessary abortions, but ban elective ones.

They were done in states that don’t allow otherwise.
1000 were done in states that allow for any reason. The others were not.
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amother




Linen


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 12:40 pm
sushilover wrote:
Please read my posts more carefully. I have never said that.
An elective abortion is when the mother's health is not at risk and there is no fetal abnormality.


NY law does not permit "elective" abortions after 24 weeks. Abortions are limited to situations where the health of the mother is threatened (according to the practitioner’s reasonable and good faith professional judgment based on the facts of the patient’s case) or the fetus is not viable.

Since we were discussing NY law, it seemed obvious to me that you were conflating this standard to late term abortion on demand.

But here's the thing. In the US, abortion is regulated on both the state and federal levels. So while the FEDERAL government doesn't ban late term abortion on demand, there are state laws. As far as I can tell, 43 states limits the right to abortion either after "viability" or after a specific gestational age.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 1:23 pm
Would you abort this baby? He wasn't supposed to live past infancy:

http://jewishmom.com/2019/01/3.....nal-video/

Would you adopt him if his mother chose not to abort, but could not deal with his health issues?

How do you define "quality of life"? Where is the line you cross whether someone should live or die?
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amother




Linen


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 2:02 pm
FranticFrummie wrote:
Would you abort this baby? He wasn't supposed to live past infancy:

http://jewishmom.com/2019/01/3.....nal-video/

Would you adopt him if his mother chose not to abort, but could not deal with his health issues?

How do you define "quality of life"? Where is the line you cross whether someone should live or die?


What I would do isn't relevant. The question is what the mother has the right to do.

But if we are making it personal, there are about 102,000 children in the U.S. foster care system waiting to be adopted. The numbers of children who are waiting to be adopted show that from thirty to fifty-percent experience a form of developmental disability. So 30,000 to 50,000 children. Today. How many of these children have you stepped forward to adopt?

The answer is none for me. BH I've not been faced with those issues, but I don't know if I could handle it.
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amother




Green


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 2:05 pm
Delete

Last edited by amother on Mon, Feb 11 2019, 12:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother




Green


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 2:08 pm
Delete

Last edited by amother on Mon, Feb 11 2019, 12:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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gamanit




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 2:09 pm
amother wrote:
What I would do isn't relevant. The question is what the mother has the right to do.

But if we are making it personal, there are about 102,000 children in the U.S. foster care system waiting to be adopted. The numbers of children who are waiting to be adopted show that from thirty to fifty-percent experience a form of developmental disability. So 30,000 to 50,000 children. Today. How many of these children have you stepped forward to adopt?

The answer is none for me. BH I've not been faced with those issues, but I don't know if I could handle it.


Very few of the children in the foster system were in the system as babies. Most of them are children who are considered to be "disturbed" after having gone through terrible early childhood years. It is far easier to take in a child with medical needs than it is to take in a child that can potentially harm your other children. I am at the moment not in a position to take in any additional children especially children with significant needs but I do hope to be able to when most of my own children are grown.
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gamanit




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 2:13 pm
amother wrote:
What I would do isn't relevant. The question is what the mother has the right to do.

But if we are making it personal, there are about 102,000 children in the U.S. foster care system waiting to be adopted. The numbers of children who are waiting to be adopted show that from thirty to fifty-percent experience a form of developmental disability. So 30,000 to 50,000 children. Today. How many of these children have you stepped forward to adopt?

The answer is none for me. BH I've not been faced with those issues, but I don't know if I could handle it.


another point I left out is many families that are fostering children do not want to adopt them because as soon as they sign adoption papers the government stops paying them for taking care of this child. As long as they are fostering and not adopting they continue to get a monthly stipend. Very often children in care are in loving homes without being formally adopted.
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amother




Amber


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 2:23 pm
smileforamile wrote:
So because you couldn't handle it, the baby should be murdered?!?! They still have the right to live. And you can never predict where those children will end up. Even if they do end up with a developmental disability, should they not live?!

My sister's good friend's father was born with a congenital heart defect and was predicted not to live past infancy. The doctors later told him he wouldn't live past 20, and then that he would never have children. Well, he lived until 49 and had 2 children. Just because the doctors say something, doesn't mean it's true.


The million dollar question - when does the 'right to live' start?
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