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Does tznious depend on how pretty you are?
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amother
Brown


 

Post Sun, Feb 03 2019, 8:24 pm
Two women can wear the same dress/wig/shoes and one looks drop-dead stunning and the other one looks 'just ok.' Does this mean that the prettier women have to tone down what they wear more than the average-below average woman? Can we even accurately assess ourselves? So many women have hang ups about their looks from their families, society, pregnancy weight...maybe we can't even be objective about how beautiful we are. Who gets to decide what is beautiful and what crosses the line to attractive, the men? Other women? Your husband? You?
I am a naturally beautiful woman. I get compliments on my looks when I am wearing a snood and no make up. Does that mean I can't wear a longer wig because it will be too much? How about heels? how about make up? How about a perfectly fitting stylish dress? With all those things together, if I am a 9 or a 10 in a room full of women, does that mean I am not tznious?
I value being tznious mostly because it is good for my marriage. I want to give myself to my husband and not have other men thinking about me. I am confused about how to determine the grey areas after all the basic halachos are met. neckline, kneese, elbows covered--now what.
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amother
Orange


 

Post Sun, Feb 03 2019, 8:27 pm
Tznius does not depend on how pretty you are. There are halachos regarding dress and also actions, which are equally important. You can behave flirtatiously in a burka and it's not ok. Wear whatever length shaitel is accepted in your community. I guess it's not clear what's confusing if there are so many specific guidelines.
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mammale




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 03 2019, 8:28 pm
Tznius is not about looking ugly or hiding your beauty in any way. It is about dressing in a refined manner as delineated in halacha.
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DVOM




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 03 2019, 8:28 pm
I value tzniut because I value myself. Maybe if you started thinking about tzniut as an expression of self-respect it would feel less confusing.
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amother
Plum


 

Post Sun, Feb 03 2019, 8:36 pm
There's a difference between being attractive and attracting. You should look nice and refined, even beautiful, without looking like you're trying to attract attention.
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crust




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 03 2019, 8:37 pm
I value my tznius because I value my inner strengths more than my outer looks.
I want people to relate to me as a person and to my ideas as ideas. I don't want people to relate to my beauty instead.

Having said that there is a reason Hashem gave you/us natural beauty and you can use it to lift people's spirit amongst other good things.
Don't underestimate that power!
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crust




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 03 2019, 8:38 pm
amother wrote:
There's a difference between being attractive and attracting. You should look nice and refined, even beautiful, without looking like you're trying to attract attention.



I would say its attractive vs. appealing.
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amother
Ecru


 

Post Sun, Feb 03 2019, 8:40 pm
amother wrote:
Two women can wear the same dress/wig/shoes and one looks drop-dead stunning and the other one looks 'just ok.' Does this mean that the prettier women have to tone down what they wear more than the average-below average woman? Can we even accurately assess ourselves? So many women have hang ups about their looks from their families, society, pregnancy weight...maybe we can't even be objective about how beautiful we are. Who gets to decide what is beautiful and what crosses the line to attractive, the men? Other women? Your husband? You?
I am a naturally beautiful woman. I get compliments on my looks when I am wearing a snood and no make up. Does that mean I can't wear a longer wig because it will be too much? How about heels? how about make up? How about a perfectly fitting stylish dress? With all those things together, if I am a 9 or a 10 in a room full of women, does that mean I am not tznious?
I value being tznious mostly because it is good for my marriage. I want to give myself to my husband and not have other men thinking about me. I am confused about how to determine the grey areas after all the basic halachos are met. neckline, kneese, elbows covered--now what.


I think so to an extent. Meaning you don't have to go crazy out of your way but if you feel you look too attracting in a certain piece of clothing, even if on someone else it would be fine, then don't wear it. But don't wear a snood and a slinky skirt all day either.

I had a teacher with very long legs and she told us that even though she held of the opnion to cover 4 inches below the knee for herself she covered 6. Not because it's wrong to do 4 but because she felt that when she only wore 4 her legs still stood out among everyone elses which she felt was not btznius.

Another example. I'm very short. I wear much taller heels than I would if I was taller. My friends would look untznius if they wore the height I did but on me its fine because I don't stand out at all with them while they would.
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Cheiny




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 03 2019, 10:02 pm
amother wrote:
Two women can wear the same dress/wig/shoes and one looks drop-dead stunning and the other one looks 'just ok.' Does this mean that the prettier women have to tone down what they wear more than the average-below average woman? Can we even accurately assess ourselves? So many women have hang ups about their looks from their families, society, pregnancy weight...maybe we can't even be objective about how beautiful we are. Who gets to decide what is beautiful and what crosses the line to attractive, the men? Other women? Your husband? You?
I am a naturally beautiful woman. I get compliments on my looks when I am wearing a snood and no make up. Does that mean I can't wear a longer wig because it will be too much? How about heels? how about make up? How about a perfectly fitting stylish dress? With all those things together, if I am a 9 or a 10 in a room full of women, does that mean I am not tznious?
I value being tznious mostly because it is good for my marriage. I want to give myself to my husband and not have other men thinking about me. I am confused about how to determine the grey areas after all the basic halachos are met. neckline, kneese, elbows covered--now what.


You shouldn’t value tznius most because you deem it good for your marriage. You should value it because it’s a Torah commandment, even for singles. It also sounds like you’re a bit too focused on yourself and your looks....
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 03 2019, 10:08 pm
No. Other posters have spoken about developing an innate sense of one's own worth, but I want to break that down just a little in terms of the OP's focus on youthful attractiveness.

One of the most important and uplifting messages we should take from tznius is its complete repudiation of society's natural parameters of s-xuality and s-xual attraction.

Women are biologically engineered to be most attractive at the peak of their fertility. In fact, studies show that women are typically rated as more attractive at the time of their cycle when they would be most likely to become pregnant.

Likewise, the men considered most objectively attractive display physical strength combined with the appropriate aggressiveness and place in the societal hierarchy to enable them to provide for their families.

So why would Hashem make s-xual appeal somewhat transient based on age and physical factors yet impose various halachos on us throughout our lives?

Partly because our s-x drives do more than simply enable reproduction; they also provide a way for couples to bond and express affection long after the reproductive role is over. Yet the secular world denies the s-xual nature of those who fall outside the window of reproductive ability or desirability.

How many times have we all heard someone ask why an elderly gadol is careful not to have too much contact with women? How many jokes have we all heard about bubbes who make sure their clothes aren't too short or too tight?

The Torah does not des-xualize people simply because they get old or are no longer in the midst of their childbearing years -- or because they somehow don't meet the secular world's standards for beauty in any given generation.

I actually find that very affirming and moving. You and I may strongly suspect that it's the rare 70-year-old bubbe who causes 20-year-old men to stumble over their feet when they catch sight of her pulling her cart to the fruit market, but the Torah makes no such assumptions. The Torah tells us, "Hey, don't be so sure! Sparks can fly! You never know what can happen, so be careful!"

And isn't that a nicer and healthier perspective than that of our surrounding society, where people are lauded for how long they can maintain the illusion -- sometimes with the help of expensive, dangerous surgical procedures -- that they're still at the peak of their fertility/virility?
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amother
Ecru


 

Post Sun, Feb 03 2019, 10:08 pm
Cheiny wrote:
You shouldn’t value tznius most because you deem it good for your marriage. You should value it because it’s a Torah commandment, even for singles. It also sounds like you’re a bit too focused on yourself and your looks....


While I agree your first point I think the complete opposite on your second one. This women clearly wants to make sure she is doing the right thing!! If a person was blessed with a lot of money and they were trying to figure out what the appropriate way for them to use it would be, would you say they are too focused on their wealth?? Halevai we should have more threads like this over whats in style in ss19!!
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mom2mysouls




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 03 2019, 10:22 pm
This post is very accurate as I see this all the time. I feel that people always compliment me when I am plainly dressed, just because I have a great figure and great skin. I generally wear dark colors, and simple stuff. But I know if I wore colorful and fitted stuff that my overweight neighbor wears, I would look provocative. And she is "allowed" to wear it bc she needs something to enhance her looks.

I feel that people generalize tznius; length, color, style. And really, tznius is about not attracting provocative attention. The same style looks completely different on one person than the other.


Last edited by mom2mysouls on Mon, Feb 04 2019, 1:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 03 2019, 10:36 pm
mom2mysouls wrote:
But I know if I wore colorful and fitted stuff that my overweight neighbor wears, I would look provocative. And she is "allowed" to wear it bc she needs something to enhance her looks.


This is just uncalled for.

I wear colorful dresses because I love them and because it’s my style, not because I think my looks need any halachically-dubious “enhancing.” My tastes don’t change based on gaining or losing weight, and certainly no one “allows” me to do anything on that basis either!
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 03 2019, 10:45 pm
mom2mysouls wrote:
But I know if I wore colorful and fitted stuff that my overweight neighbor wears, I would look provocative. And she is "allowed" to wear it bc she needs something to enhance her looks.

No, the Torah doesn't attempt to reflect the beauty standards of a given era. While it's true that a given style may seem appropriate on one individual and provacative on another because of body type, the purpose of tznius is not to somehow equalize how attractive or provocative everyone is.
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Ravenclaw




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 03 2019, 10:52 pm
Huh? Since when is tznius about not looking beautiful?
It is about not being provocative. Very different. A woman can look gorgeous and be totally btznius, and some celebrities (MC, anyone?) can be disgustingly untzniusdig while dressed in ugly yet shockingly provocative “dresses”.
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amother
Sapphire


 

Post Sun, Feb 03 2019, 11:01 pm
Fox, you're my hero. Totally fawning over you. (Even if you happen to be a 70 year-old bubby pulling her fruit cart to market.)

Batting Eyelashes Yes

Seriously now, how do you always find the right words???
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 03 2019, 11:10 pm
Fox wrote:
No, the Torah doesn't attempt to reflect the beauty standards of a given era. While it's true that a given style may seem appropriate on one individual and provacative on another because of body type, the purpose of tznius is not to somehow equalize how attractive or provocative everyone is.


Well, isn’t it? Isn’t the idea to make sure no one woman stands out? Especially to a man who is not her husband? In other words, make everyone as equally pretty as possible. Without realizing it, you’ve articulated quite well the communism of tsnius.
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daagahminayin




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 03 2019, 11:13 pm
In general, be yourself, dress how you want within the parameters of tznius guidelines, enjoy your beauty and use it to spread joy and inspiration in the world.

However, if you know you’re going to be in the company of men who are not your husband, I.e. you’re having married couples over for Shabbos meal etc, it’s a verynice sensitivity to tone down your appearance just a little to avoid distracting the men or making their wives feel insecure.
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amother
Sapphire


 

Post Sun, Feb 03 2019, 11:14 pm
marina wrote:
...the communism of tsnius.


This is an ORTHODOX site, Marina. We believe in halacha. And yes, the halachos of tznuis.

Communism can be found over on KGB.org.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 03 2019, 11:19 pm
marina wrote:
Well, isn’t it? Isn’t the idea to make sure no one woman stands out? Especially to a man who is not her husband? In other words, make everyone as equally pretty as possible. Without realizing it, you’ve articulated quite well the communism of tsnius.

Hmmm. Going to have to think about this.

Are women less provocative when they are all equally provocative? Or do beauty and s-xuality exist on a separate plane where some animals will always be more equal than others? Does tznius defy or enshrine the maiden/mother/crone archetype? This sounds like it's heading for serious Camille Paglia territory, and my brain is too mushy tonight for that stuff.
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