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Does tznious depend on how pretty you are?
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Cheiny




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 04 2019, 2:15 pm
marina wrote:
Please recognize, Fox, that you attempt to reframe tznius as an empowering affirmation of female s-xuality *only* because the old fashioned reasons for tznius (protect the men) are no longer acceptable to your feminist mindset.

No matter how much you rail against feminism and social norms, they permeate every aspect of our lives, even the way we explain halachos.


I’m amazed at how so many different subjects of threads manage to evolve into disdain for the frum community, frumkeit and halachos....
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Cheiny




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 04 2019, 2:16 pm
amother wrote:
I think what a lot of you are missing is that many of these people who are of the communities where hair is shoulder length or in a ponytail, and the skirts are the halachic 4 in" below the knee, etc., are actually doing what they do because they feel it increases their connection with Hashem -- not because they are part of a society that has these "rules" to control them. Let's not take Yiddishkeit out of the equation.

I say this because I belong to the chasidishe community, and the people I know can be divided into three groups, though members from one group can sometimes hop into another...

1. Those who are really trying to live a spiritual life. The people from this group tend to be more careful with the letter of the law, using it a vehicle of spirituality, helping them to find connection with Hashem. This group appreciates the community standards, in general.

2. Those who more drawn towards the outside world of glitter and glam, and are bucking off the reign of "rules," pushing the boundaries, feeling caged in by the standards. They want to be chasidishe, but on their own modern terms. These are the people who are embittered by the "rules."

3. Those of who want to be drawn more towards our spiritual side but admit to battling with the materialistic side that taunts us in this day. We are people who appreciate the community standards, but admit that they are sometimes uncomfortable. But uncomfortable doesn't mean wrong. And I think that's important to realize.

Point being: When you look at a community from the outside, it may seem oppressive to you. But to those of us inside, it can be something of beauty. It all depends on your personal worldview. (And also if you are reaching upwards or outwards.)


It’s nice to hear your positive take on it, in contrast with the negativity from the other side.,.,
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Cheiny




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 04 2019, 2:22 pm
amother wrote:
In general though, the typical person in a chassidishe community who is just bucking the standards is doing it because chumros were unwillingly enforced upon her and she was taught that this was the only emes'dig way, so she is running away from it all.

Although I rephrased your words, I personally wouldn't use this stereotype at all. While there are some who do as you describe, there are equal amounts who move to other communities to find their spiritual comfort zone. You may not be aware of the numbers of them, because the community prefers to not acknowledge them. Instead the prefer to parade around those who do go off to the extreme to use them as 'proof' or tools for their propaganda. The profess that this what happens when you drop their conformities, and its 'proof' that their chumros are what keeps yiddishkeit intact.

Honestly, it's time for you to face reality. There are plenty of people to whom focusing intensely on the outer coverings of the body, does not provide any form of spirituality. Leaving it behind to find other means of personal spirituality, is a step closer to serving the Yetzer Tov and Hashem.


Do you really believe what you just wrote? People give up on tznius so that they can pursue other forms of spirituality? Really? You mean, we can pick and choose?


Last edited by Cheiny on Mon, Feb 04 2019, 2:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 04 2019, 2:24 pm
Obviously not, otherwise unattractive people would be allowed to go naked.
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Cheiny




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 04 2019, 2:25 pm
amother wrote:
I grew up not religious at all. I wore shirt skirts, big necklines.. the whole deal. There were guys who objectified me but there were also guys who didn't. I think the MAIN issue is how you act... You can wear tznius clothes and act flirty. You can wear a short skirt and act decent. You will be treated the way you want to be treated. It's not about the length of your hair... I'm sure you started behaving differently towards men and therefore they treated you with more respect.


I disagree. You can act as decently as possible but if you’re wearing provocative clothing, there are many people who will automatically objectify you. Dressing that way sends off messages, and no matter how you act, your clothing is shrieking to the world, “Hey, look at me!”
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naturalmom5




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 04 2019, 2:50 pm
amother wrote:
Spirituality is different for everybody. Everyone is different and things have different meaning to everyone. Now, in no way shape or form have I ever referenced to leaving tznius behind as you've described - cleavage, tightly fitted clothing. And in know way shape or from am I referring to dropping halacha, I.e. uncovering your hair. I'm referencing to the specific chumros enforced by communities, such as 4 inches below the knee, hair being a certain length, etc. and being enforced in such way that its considered to be actual halacha.

So while you mean connect to tznius, and you may feel uplifted by ensuring that 4" inches below your knees are always covered, to me it totally had a different effect. It felt disturbing to focus so intensely on my outer coverings every single day, and that unpleasantness overshadowed my other efforts to reach deep within myself. When I was able to stop focusing on this minuteness, a beautiful transformation happened with me. I found myself actively searching for ways to connect to Hashem. My davening was more intense and I began talking to Hashem throughout the day. I was able to connect to my inner self, analyze my strength and weaknesses and began capitalizing on the former and trying to better the latter. Now, that doesn't mean my hair is uncovered, my cleavage is exposed or I wear tight fitting clothing. Not in the least bit. I just eliminated the focus on length, and hair style/length and similar narrowness that was made out to be the focus of yiddishkeit (in the community where I hail from). I give tznius its due attention as per Halacha, but don't make the chumros of it the focus of my spirituality.

Examples such as yours that only highlight the extremes, instead of focusing on a normal middle route, is, imo, a tool of propaganda. Denying the entire range of median behavior and focusing on the extreme is a placating and avoidance tool. It only serves to rationalize a chosen approach and doesn't do anything to convince people your way. I don't get why it's so hard to understand that we are all different and each one of us will spiritually connect in our own way. If I connect spiritually differently than you do, that doesn't mean that I will be transgressing in any way. The Torah itself proclaims there are many multiple ways to serve Hashem, why are our communities denying the truth and enforcing such rigidity and conformity?





This precisely... Can we move on..

Really gorgeous weather we are having today..
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 04 2019, 4:20 pm
amother wrote:
Spirituality is different for everybody. Everyone is different and things have different meaning to everyone. Now, in no way shape or form have I ever referenced to leaving tznius behind as you've described - cleavage, tightly fitted clothing. And in know way shape or from am I referring to dropping halacha, I.e. uncovering your hair. I'm referencing to the specific chumros enforced by communities, such as 4 inches below the knee, hair being a certain length, etc. and being enforced in such way that its considered to be actual halacha.


Ok, so I don't know you and I don't know what you mean. But what I do see IRL is many women who have presumably been raised with the concept of tznius who are dressing exactly the way I described.

If we are talking about chumros, then we are on the same page because I am not a fan of chumros either. Unless Rabbi Falk is your family Rav, I'm not sure why anyone feels compelled to follow it. Of course, anyone can take on chumros as long as they understand clearly that these ARE chumros, but to turn chumros into basic halachos just feels wrong to me, and many are resentful.

amother wrote:
So while you mean connect to tznius, and you may feel uplifted by ensuring that 4" inches below your knees are always covered, to me it totally had a different effect. It felt disturbing to focus so intensely on my outer coverings every single day, and that unpleasantness overshadowed my other efforts to reach deep within myself. When I was able to stop focusing on this minuteness, a beautiful transformation happened with me. I found myself actively searching for ways to connect to Hashem. My davening was more intense and I began talking to Hashem throughout the day. I was able to connect to my inner self, analyze my strength and weaknesses and began capitalizing on the former and trying to better the latter. Now, that doesn't mean my hair is uncovered, my cleavage is exposed or I wear tight fitting clothing. Not in the least bit. I just eliminated the focus on length, and hair style/length and similar narrowness that was made out to be the focus of yiddishkeit (in the community where I hail from). I give tznius its due attention as per Halacha, but don't make the chumros of it the focus of my spirituality.


I agree with bolded completely. I don't like the constant emphasis on tznius, it makes me feel more like an object and less like a person.

So since we are completely on the same page, it's obvious I wasn't talking to you. I am talking about women, and unfortunately I meet them often IRL, who are tired of chumros and instead go completely the other way. And they dress the way I described. I don't care who your Rav is, but a long shaitel halfway down to the floor is just not tznius no matter how many ways you will try to explain that it is. And I don't care how much you are working on your inner spirituality, but if you dress in a clearly provocative way you are not coming closer to Hashem, but further.

I just want to point out one thing - different Rabbanim pasken differently. So if you live in a community where the Rabbanim pasken that a shoulder length sheitel is halacha, then it is halacha for you, and not a chumrah. I know this is hard for many and I honestly don't see a solution except move away from the community, which is truly a drastic way of dealing with this. So I don't have an answer, but the problem is still there.

Another point - I think that a woman who has a longish sheitel, skirt just touching her knees, but dresses and acts tznius in all other ways is WAY more tzniusdik than someone who is wearing the four inches but her dress is too tight. But maybe I'm just crazy Confused .
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amother
Smokey


 

Post Mon, Feb 04 2019, 4:46 pm
Cheiny wrote:
I disagree. You can act as decently as possible but if you’re wearing provocative clothing, there are many people who will automatically objectify you. Dressing that way sends off messages, and no matter how you act, your clothing is shrieking to the world, “Hey, look at me!”


I went to college with a girl who was wearing "provocative clothing" (would be for the frum world). You have to remember... What we consider provocative isn't provocative for the normal world. A short skirt with black tights, a tight dress... That's what women wear. It's not a big deal unless you make it a big deal. Obviously if a woman wears a tight mini skirt in geula it's different than her wearing it in Miami Beach. And this girl from college was hardly ever hit on. It was as if the guys didn't see her. I once asked a guy why he thinks that is and he said: she has something shy and innocent about her.
Well... Not one frum person would have made that statement.
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amother
Smokey


 

Post Mon, Feb 04 2019, 4:48 pm
Cheiny wrote:
Do you really believe what you just wrote? People give up on tznius so that they can pursue other forms of spirituality? Really? You mean, we can pick and choose?


I've never had anyone hold a gun to my head telling me I can't pick and choose.
Every person decides what their priority is. You do, I do, everyone does. Some take lashon hora more seriously, some tznius, some kashrus. I'm sure you're not an angel yourself.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 04 2019, 4:58 pm
amother wrote:
I've never had anyone hold a gun to my head telling me I can't pick and choose.
Every person decides what their priority is. You do, I do, everyone does. Some take lashon hora more seriously, some tznius, some kashrus. I'm sure you're not an angel yourself.


So you're telling me that someone who is less makpid on tznius is going to be more machmir on loshon horah?

And I do think that tznius should be a priority for every frum Jewish woman.
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honeymoon




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 04 2019, 5:01 pm
smilethere wrote:
'Spiritual side' sounds a bit hippy. In Judaism we can't do what makes us feel good spiritually or moral. We follow Halachah. In tznius there is halacha too - covering hair, knees, collar bone, not wearing bright colours etc.
If you are going to disregard the rules, then what is all this feel-good spirituality about, not orthodox judaism is my guess.


The "rules" im referring to are the extra chumros which people in the community deem necessary to follow in order to be considered perfectly tznius. I'm obviously not talking about tsnius in halacha but about so called chumros you probably never heard about because they are in no way related to halacha. I follow halacha religiously plus many chumros. But if my resentment of these self imposed rules will bring me to ditch them along with halacha, then I prefer to stick to halacha and adhere to it with joy.

And I obviously wasn't talking about me specifically but a hypothetical "we" that does exist.
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Cheiny




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 04 2019, 6:22 pm
amother wrote:
I've never had anyone hold a gun to my head telling me I can't pick and choose.
Every person decides what their priority is. .


For those who are genuinely frum and want to do the right thing by following Halacha, there most certainly is no picking and choosing... we strive to do our best to keep all the Mitzvos, and most certainly do not decide to just chuck whichever ones we decide we don’t like, as you have suggested....the gun to the head point is ridiculous.
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amother
Firebrick


 

Post Mon, Feb 04 2019, 6:34 pm
Cheiny wrote:
Do you really believe what you just wrote? People give up on tznius so that they can pursue other forms of spirituality? Really? You mean, we can pick and choose?


Yes. People give up on some tznius chumros so they can pursue a form of spirituality that is more meaningful to them.

What's so hard to understand about that? It's only hard to understand if you conflate chumros with halacha. As long as you follow halacha, you can pick and choose what chumros have spiritual meaning for you.
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amother
Firebrick


 

Post Mon, Feb 04 2019, 6:37 pm
Cheiny wrote:
For those who are genuinely frum and want to do the right thing by following Halacha, there most certainly is no picking and choosing... we strive to do our best to keep all the Mitzvos, and most certainly do not decide to just chuck whichever ones we decide we don’t like, as you have suggested....the gun to the head point is ridiculous.


Pretending that chumros and halachas are one and the same, will get you nowhere. While with halacha there is no picking and choosing, there IS choosing between chumros that are meaningless or meaningful to you.
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nechamashifra




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 04 2019, 6:53 pm
amother wrote:
Two women can wear the same dress/wig/shoes and one looks drop-dead stunning and the other one looks 'just ok.' Does this mean that the prettier women have to tone down what they wear more than the average-below average woman? Can we even accurately assess ourselves? So many women have hang ups about their looks from their families, society, pregnancy weight...maybe we can't even be objective about how beautiful we are. Who gets to decide what is beautiful and what crosses the line to attractive, the men? Other women? Your husband? You?
I am a naturally beautiful woman. I get compliments on my looks when I am wearing a snood and no make up. Does that mean I can't wear a longer wig because it will be too much? How about heels? how about make up? How about a perfectly fitting stylish dress? With all those things together, if I am a 9 or a 10 in a room full of women, does that mean I am not tznious?
I value being tznious mostly because it is good for my marriage. I want to give myself to my husband and not have other men thinking about me. I am confused about how to determine the grey areas after all the basic halachos are met. neckline, kneese, elbows covered--now what.


There is nothing wrong with being the most beautiful woman in the room. Tznius does not require you to make yourself less beautiful.
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amother
Puce


 

Post Mon, Feb 04 2019, 11:11 pm
A woman who's tzanua on the inside will be tzanua on the outside. I know someone who looks completely modest in jeans and a t-shirt. I also know someone who manages to make a short sheitel and technically tznius clothing look less so because of her body language. We should focus on ourselves on having not only appropriate clothing but also just behaving as a tzanua. I don't measure the length of my skirts but I do make sure that when I sit down it still covers my knees enough that a person sitting across from me doesn't get a direct view up my skirt.
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daagahminayin




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 04 2019, 11:20 pm
nechamashifra wrote:
There is nothing wrong with being the most beautiful woman in the room. Tznius does not require you to make yourself less beautiful.


Right but isn’t it a kindness to minimise your beauty somewhat when you’re in close contact with other men and you are extremely beautiful?
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amother
Orange


 

Post Mon, Feb 04 2019, 11:30 pm
daagahminayin wrote:
Right but isn’t it a kindness to minimise your beauty somewhat when you’re in close contact with other men and you are extremely beautiful?


Minimize? No. Though there's no need to emphasize it either.
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amother
Purple


 

Post Tue, Feb 05 2019, 2:19 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
So you're telling me that someone who is less makpid on tznius is going to be more machmir on loshon horah?
And I do think that tznius should be a priority for every frum Jewish woman.


Actually YES! I definitely prioritize LH over Tznius. And I have an older teen DD who I have never heard say LH unlike some of her peers. Their skirts are longer than hers but I am so proud of what doesn’t come out of her mouth. I stopped telling her off about skirt length when I realised how good she was with not doing LH.
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amother
Purple


 

Post Tue, Feb 05 2019, 2:24 am
nechamashifra wrote:
There is nothing wrong with being the most beautiful woman in the room. Tznius does not require you to make yourself less beautiful.


There is if it makes other people’s DH’s lust after you and potentially incite jealousy in their wives. Some women seem to need this validation of being “the most beautiful” in the room. This to me is NOT Tznius at all, even if their skirt goes down to the floor...
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