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-> Fashion and Beauty
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amother
Purple
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 Mon, Feb 04 2019, 4:09 am
| sequoia wrote: | This is just uncalled for.
I wear colorful dresses because I love them and because it’s my style, not because I think my looks need any halachically-dubious “enhancing.” My tastes don’t change based on gaining or losing weight, and certainly no one “allows” me to do anything on that basis either! |
Agreed and many men prefer the more curvaceous woman to slender ones so you can’t make blanket statements about larger women “needing” colors.
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amother
Purple
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Mon, Feb 04 2019, 4:12 am
| heidi wrote: | So I totally agree with this.
In my ideal made up in my head world women over a certain age or a certain weight limit could wear leggings and a ponytail bc really now, who's looking at them?!? |
I am nearly 50 and wear leggings and sometimes a pony. And I am not skinny either. Your ideal is my reality?
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amother
Purple
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Mon, Feb 04 2019, 4:15 am
| amother wrote: | I think so to an extent. Meaning you don't have to go crazy out of your way but if you feel you look too attracting in a certain piece of clothing, even if on someone else it would be fine, then don't wear it. But don't wear a snood and a slinky skirt all day either.
I had a teacher with very long legs and she told us that even though she held of the opnion to cover 4 inches below the knee for herself she covered 6. Not because it's wrong to do 4 but because she felt that when she only wore 4 her legs still stood out among everyone elses which she felt was not btznius.
Another example. I'm very short. I wear much taller heels than I would if I was taller. My friends would look untznius if they wore the height I did but on me its fine because I don't stand out at all with them while they would. |
I think heels are not just about height at all and mostly about Tznius. I am short and almost never wear them because I prefer to be comfortable and also my DH thinks heels “ridiculous.” Whenever I wear them, other women notice not my DH.
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imasoftov
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Mon, Feb 04 2019, 4:26 am
| marina wrote: | | Well, isn’t it? Isn’t the idea to make sure no one woman stands out? Especially to a man who is not her husband? In other words, make everyone as equally pretty as possible. Without realizing it, you’ve articulated quite well the communism of tsnius. |
"THE YEAR WAS 2081, and everybody was finally equal. They weren't only equal before God and the law. They were equal every which way. Nobody was smarter than anybody else. Nobody was better looking than anybody else. Nobody was stronger or quicker than anybody else. All this equality was due to the 211th, 212th, and 213th Amendments to the Constitution, and to the unceasing vigilance of agents of the United States Handicapper General." - Harrison Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
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imasoftov
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Mon, Feb 04 2019, 4:49 am
| amother wrote: | | If someone has traded in their Tehillim for a smartphone, then yes |
The only Tehillim I say are those that are in the siddur (we don't have any siddurim that have all of Tehillim in the back), but my weekday siddur is my smartphone unless it's recharging.
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amother
Sapphire
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Mon, Feb 04 2019, 5:04 am
| amother wrote: | Women who think they need to wear a burqa certainly don't look pretty to me or most people.
They think it's tznius. And yes some people think they need to wear ugly clothes to look tznius. |
Not quite. BUT you did bring up an important point. You just admitted that the way we dress affects the way we act. If, as you say, I cut my hair and then began to behave differently, it goes to show that I held myself as more respectable with shorter hair, and thus, behaved so.
But it didn't actually happen that way, as I wasn't flirtatious to begin with.
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amother
Sapphire
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Mon, Feb 04 2019, 5:05 am
| amother wrote: | Women who think they need to wear a burqa certainly don't look pretty to me or most people.
They think it's tznius. And yes some people think they need to wear ugly clothes to look tznius. |
How many burkas are in Williamsburg?
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amother
Ecru
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Mon, Feb 04 2019, 5:07 am
| amother wrote: | | I think heels are just about height and mostly about Tznius. I am short and almost never wear them because I prefer to be comfortable and also my DH thinks heels “ridiculous.” Whenever I wear them, other women notice not my DH. |
Ok but I'm talking about when everyone in wearing heels, like to a wedding so no one is really noticing the specific heel. I'm less than 5 ft. I wear 4in+ heels but even in heels I'm still short. My friends who are 5' 10" could barely wear any heels let alone the ones I wear because it would make them stand out in a not tzniusdik way. While I'm still be the shortest in the room.
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DrMom
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Mon, Feb 04 2019, 5:10 am
| imasoftov wrote: | | "THE YEAR WAS 2081, and everybody was finally equal. They weren't only equal before God and the law. They were equal every which way. Nobody was smarter than anybody else. Nobody was better looking than anybody else. Nobody was stronger or quicker than anybody else. All this equality was due to the 211th, 212th, and 213th Amendments to the Constitution, and to the unceasing vigilance of agents of the United States Handicapper General." - Harrison Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. |
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amother
Dodgerblue
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Mon, Feb 04 2019, 5:19 am
| amother wrote: | | How many burkas are in Williamsburg? |
Is this serious?
Afaik Willy is ok with relatively bright colors and patterns (like big patterns and plaids with contrasting colors that attract the eye)that I (more mod orth machmir) wouldnt wear. I have relatives there.
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amother
Firebrick
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Mon, Feb 04 2019, 6:34 am
| Mommyg8 wrote: | But what if spirituality IS tznius? In what way will a person grow if they leave tznius behind?
Now I love the way everyone's referencing four inch below the knee and shoulder length hair, but we all know that's not the issue. I don't mean to be rude or insulting, but to be perfectly honest, your knees are not s-xy. It's the tight clothes, the bright colors, the cleavage, and uncovered hair that's the real tznius issue. And you can't convince me that when you trade in your tznius clothes for clothing that is less, you are upping your spirituality, because you're not.
As for conformity - every community has their own fashion and styles. In some it's black leggings, in some it's multiple body piercings and tri- color hair, and in some it's the style of the skirt. Which honestly has nothing to do with tznius. |
Spirituality is different for everybody. Everyone is different and things have different meaning to everyone. Now, in no way shape or form have I ever referenced to leaving tznius behind as you've described - cleavage, tightly fitted clothing. And in know way shape or from am I referring to dropping halacha, I.e. uncovering your hair. I'm referencing to the specific chumros enforced by communities, such as 4 inches below the knee, hair being a certain length, etc. and being enforced in such way that its considered to be actual halacha.
So while you mean connect to tznius, and you may feel uplifted by ensuring that 4" inches below your knees are always covered, to me it totally had a different effect. It felt disturbing to focus so intensely on my outer coverings every single day, and that unpleasantness overshadowed my other efforts to reach deep within myself. When I was able to stop focusing on this minuteness, a beautiful transformation happened with me. I found myself actively searching for ways to connect to Hashem. My davening was more intense and I began talking to Hashem throughout the day. I was able to connect to my inner self, analyze my strength and weaknesses and began capitalizing on the former and trying to better the latter. Now, that doesn't mean my hair is uncovered, my cleavage is exposed or I wear tight fitting clothing. Not in the least bit. I just eliminated the focus on length, and hair style/length and similar narrowness that was made out to be the focus of yiddishkeit (in the community where I hail from). I give tznius its due attention as per Halacha, but don't make the chumros of it the focus of my spirituality.
Examples such as yours that only highlight the extremes, instead of focusing on a normal middle route, is, imo, a tool of propaganda. Denying the entire range of median behavior and focusing on the extreme is a placating and avoidance tool. It only serves to rationalize a chosen approach and doesn't do anything to convince people your way. I don't get why it's so hard to understand that we are all different and each one of us will spiritually connect in our own way. If I connect spiritually differently than you do, that doesn't mean that I will be transgressing in any way. The Torah itself proclaims there are many multiple ways to serve Hashem, why are our communities denying the truth and enforcing such rigidity and conformity?
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amother
Firebrick
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Mon, Feb 04 2019, 6:38 am
| smilethere wrote: | 'Spiritual side' sounds a bit hippy. In Judaism we can't do what makes us feel good spiritually or moral. We follow Halachah. In tznius there is halacha too - covering hair, knees, collar bone, not wearing bright colours etc.
If you are going to disregard the rules, then what is all this feel-good spirituality about, not orthodox judaism is my guess. |
This thread isn't so much about halacha, it's about Chumrahs. Please provide the source where 4" below the knee, hair a certain length, socks of a specific color, etc are halacha.
In Judaism, we don't do what feels goods to us in choosing to follow Halachas. But when we select individual spiritual path, as its related to Chumrohs and community standards, it's important that it has an uplifting spiritual path, instead of one that negatively impacts the observances of yiddishkeit.
In this thread we weren't discussing dropping halachas, we were discussing dropping chumrohs that have no meaning to us. Failing to recognize this difference between the two shadows your statements.
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amother
Firebrick
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Mon, Feb 04 2019, 6:55 am
| amother wrote: | You say it is easier to submit oneself to the ideals they were raised with than to move away and do as they wish. I posit that it is more difficult -- and more praiseworthy than both situations -- to stay within the ideals and to find meaning within them. It is easy to find "meaning" in the new and novel.
Allow me to add another layer to this conversation, and I pray you are accepting this as a meeting of minds and not a smash-battle.
Though I am chasidishe now, and am very well aware of all extremes in the community, I am a BT. Not just any BT, the BT from the thread about muslims.
I know what it is to walk away from how you've been raised. I know what it is to set yourself on a different path. It is hard, but there is an enchantment that draws you in.
Now, when it comes to people who leave the way they've been raised, I find there is ONE reason and one reason ONLY for their leaving:
Anger.
Anger that is projected on religion. Anger that is caused by people. Not by religion. People who practice religion in a specific manner.
The mind muddies the waters, causing the brain to believe that the religion is the reason they were mistreated by people who practiced that religion. But so often, at least in terms of the heimishe community, the religion has, in reality, zero fault in the rousing of hurt and anger. It just goes along, as a package deal.
What that means, is that the person walking away from the people who hurt him, walks away from the standards that that person appeared to have lived by. The baby is dumped with the bathwater.
So yes, I do believe the yetzor hara is smuggling into the person's brain. He's saying, "cast away your chasidishkeit because someone hurt you. It's all religion's fault."
And that person believes him.
And they go on to live a more meaningful life -- in the sense that because they removed themself from the anger/hurt-rousing people, they become more healthy. But their neshama is silently crying. Wanting to adhere to standards of which they are accustomed. Wanted to be free from hurt and anger -- but to be frum in the way it was meant to be. |
This may be true of some people, but it doesn't hold true for others. Yes, people run from anger and hurt, and its very understanding. And generally, those who run from anger or hurt, are the ones who just run with no direction in sight. They are the ones who often end up in the position you've described above.
And do you know why some reach this level of anger and hurt. They're being forced to be someone they're not, being forced to live spiritually in a way that is meaningless to them. That slowly builds up anger and resentment, and when they're consistently being berated for feeling like this, instead of being offered the tools they particularly need, its just crescendos until it explodes one day.
But what about the others, the ones who aren't angry? The ones who are just going about their day seeking for something that satisfies their spirituality, but nothing being served up in the community fits that particular bill. They're not angry, they're not hurt, they're just searching for a direction in life that's meaningful to them. They're the ones who don't make any noise, they just quietly go about their life, make the difficult changes in their life, and live happily, content and a fulfilling yiddishe life. Yes, I can attest that there are many of them. But you don't hear about them or me. We don't make any noise and the community doesn't really want to acknowledge us because it points out a flaw in their system of conformity. So we're generally just brushed aside and the extremes is what gets highlighted, to push others to continue toeing the line.
And can I ask you this - if someone from an MO or other community would come to a Chassidish community and start becoming Chassidish, would you be telling him the same line of thought? That he is coming out of anger, and he is just running from the anger and hurt and his neshama will be crying? Or will this whole concept be turned on its head and it will suddenly be running from his community in search of spirituality which he has now found in your community?
Every community has its own form of spirituality, and everyone has possesses a spirituality that personally speaks to them. Moving from one place to another in search of it, is a positive thing. It's only when you're running away from it all, you want to drop it all together, is when it becomes troublesome.
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imasoftov
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Mon, Feb 04 2019, 7:06 am
| amother wrote: | The baby is dumped with the bathwater.
So yes, I do believe the yetzor hara is smuggling into the person's brain. He's saying, "cast away your chasidishkeit because someone hurt you. It's all religion's fault." |
That baby and also Firebrick's response, reminded me of "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas" by Ursula K. Le Guin which is too long to quote the whole of, but here's a summary. Note that the name Omelas comes from Salem spelled backwards and I'm just rambling* when I mention that there's a city that used to be called Salem that prophets once or twice compared to Sdom. Maybe Kohelet meant something similar by: וְעוֹד רָאִיתִי תַּחַת הַשָּׁמֶשׁ מְקוֹם הַמִּשְׁפָּט שָׁמָּה הָרֶשַׁע וּמְקוֹם הַצֶּדֶק שָׁמָּה הָרָשַׁע. since צֶּדֶק goes along with שלם
* 'Where do you get your ideas from, Ms. Softov?'
Last edited by imasoftov on Mon, Feb 04 2019, 7:15 am; edited 4 times in total
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urban gypsy
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Mon, Feb 04 2019, 7:07 am
| amother wrote: | | Marina, you seem like the movie-watching type (and I'll admit I've also been); there is a Ben Sandler movie that is made about this specific issue. A beautiful Mexican cleaning lady comes to work in his home, and right behind his wive's back, he begins to cheat. |
Ugh I am so aggravated by this post. Firstly, it's Adam Sandler, not Ben Sandler.
Secondly, did you actually even see this movie? His wife is extremely beautiful, he is attracted to her, and constantly comments about how beautiful and in-shape she is. However, his wife is actually the one who starts cheating on HIM in a spectacular fashion, and terrorizes their entire family with her demeaning and tyrannical attitude towards her husband and children. The Mexican cleaning lady is pretty, but rather modest in clothing and attitude, and becomes emotionally enmeshed in the problems of this family and tries to help the husband and children. He falls for her because of her wisdom, kindness, and goodness and her above-and-beyond sacrifices for his family. But he never cheats on his wife! I'm so sad for you that you were unable to comprehend the plotline of this amazing movie (It's called Spanglish, for anyone who is interested)
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DrMom
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Mon, Feb 04 2019, 8:19 am
| imasoftov wrote: | That baby and also Firebrick's response, reminded me of "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas" by Ursula K. Le Guin which is too long to quote the whole of, but here's a summary. Note that the name Omelas comes from Salem spelled backwards and I'm just rambling* when I mention that there's a city that used to be called Salem that prophets once or twice compared to Sdom. Maybe Kohelet meant something similar by: וְעוֹד רָאִיתִי תַּחַת הַשָּׁמֶשׁ מְקוֹם הַמִּשְׁפָּט שָׁמָּה הָרֶשַׁע וּמְקוֹם הַצֶּדֶק שָׁמָּה הָרָשַׁע. since צֶּדֶק goes along with שלם
* 'Where do you get your ideas from, Ms. Softov?' |
Love her. Such an original and creative author.
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Mevater
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Mon, Feb 04 2019, 8:32 am
| marina wrote: | Look it’s like Lori Palatnik insisting that she is not going to hire a pretty young girl to clean or babysit for her.
http://www.aish.com/sp/lal/92948634.html
Some women don’t want to feel self concsious by being around women who are more attractive so they try to equalize everyone. In that video she literally advises women to hire based on who looks less pretty and young. |
Thats an amazing guarantee (not).
If a guy has morals, he has morals and if a guy doesnt have morals, he doesnt and will take advantage of any opportunity to act on all his urges.
Look who Arnold Schwarzenegger fathered a child with, side by side w his wife. Im sure there are many such cases.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/m.....ence/
 
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Fox
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Mon, Feb 04 2019, 10:18 am
| Mevater wrote: | | Look who Arnold Schwarzenegger fathered a child with, side by side w his wife. Im sure there are many such cases. |
It's funny, Mevater -- I was thinking of Schwarzenegger, too. I was going to post something but I figured everyone would claim they'd never heard of Schwarzenegger and therefore couldn't understand the example. 
In fact, men often cheat with women who are objectively less attractive than their wives. So tznius isn't just about the physical comparisons between women; it's about a whole range of things.
But the Schwarzeneggers are a perfect example, and it's easy to see how it happened. You have an extraordinarily successful, high-achieving man who is married to a high-achieving woman. After XX number of years of marriage, the wife obviously loves her husband, but is probably no longer impressed by him. She probably no longer thinks of him as an insanely dedicated, persistent guy who's overcome ridiculous obstacles to reach pinnacles of success in two different realms. He's just Ah-nuld, who leaves his socks on the floor, or whatever.
Moreover, Maria is not an unambitious homebody; Arnold wouldn't have been attracted to her in the first place had that been the case. So as Maria is rekindling her career while Arnold's is winding down a bit, along comes the housekeeper, who still regards her boss as the Terminator . . . instead of a guy who leaves his socks on the floor and had his family living out of a hotel in Sacramento for a few years because California's governor's mansion was sold.
I didn't follow the Schwarzenegger/Shriver in detail, so I may have gotten various elements of the situation wrong. Plus, I'm obviously assuming psychological aspects that I have no way of knowing.
But it's almost a stereotypical situation. When men are asked why they cheat, they almost always cite things like, "She appreciates me." Newsweek
So infidelity is clearly not related to how pretty a woman is; how great she looks in drab clothes or vibrant colors; or whether her skirt is 4 inches or 6 inches below her knee. Provocative dress may draw a man's attention, but it's only a small piece of the puzzle.
Maybe a better way to think about it is that tznius is the physical manifestation of boundaries. I'm sure I've heard this in shiurim someplace, but I can't recall the source. Whether you wear your skirts 4" or 6" below the knee, your dress and your demeanor must send the message that your limits are firm.
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Mevater
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Mon, Feb 04 2019, 10:58 am
| Fox wrote: | | Maybe a better way to think about it is that tznius is the physical manifestation of boundaries. I'm sure I've heard this in shiurim someplace, but I can't recall the source. Whether you wear your skirts 4" or 6" below the knee, your dress and your demeanor must send the message that your limits are firm. |
Brilliantly said BUT as I read that I pictured women in the Ultra Orthodox community who undoubtedly give off the impression that their limits are firm, and yet I hear from people who live in the most Ultra Ultra Orthodox communities, that there IS definitely Hanky Panky going on there.
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Cheiny
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Mon, Feb 04 2019, 11:02 am
| amother wrote: | | While I agree your first point I think the complete opposite on your second one. This women clearly wants to make sure she is doing the right thing!! If a person was blessed with a lot of money and they were trying to figure out what the appropriate way for them to use it would be, would you say they are too focused on their wealth?? Halevai we should have more threads like this over whats in style in ss19!! |
Well I guess we both got different impressions from her OP. To me her post sounded lmore focused on herself and her looks and less about the real meaning and intention of the Tznius issue....
Last edited by Cheiny on Mon, Feb 04 2019, 11:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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