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Advice re unmarried sister and mother.
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amother




cornflower


Post  Thu, Feb 07 2019, 8:38 am
yes yes yes!! agrees with Sequoia! taking away cell phone from a kallah. my mother also took away my cell phone once (after found me having inappropriate msgs, but that's separate story) not sure this is the right forum but need to vent.. and gain insight... just hung up the phone from my mom who wanted to understand what my sister is thinking dressing the way she does, and how she thinks she is holier than thou, but doesn't she know that Hashem doesn't want her to dress this way... I don't know what to say. told her this is not your job, she is over 18, and this is not what Hashem wants from you, to understand why she is acting to Him in whatever way she is. like if He is unhappy with the way she dresses... and told her well for whatever reason she is choosing to be less chasidish. she is like where is Mesorah... and of course it is easier but she thinks she is such a great girl... and what am I thinking also, like I am frummer than her, but still not like my mom and family... I am getting confused myself. don't know anymore what's wrong or right.
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ra_mom




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Feb 07 2019, 8:48 am
Why is your sister allowing people to call the house after 11? It's not menchlach. Maybe that's why your mom had to impose such a seemingly unfair policy. Your mom shouldn't stop your sister from speaking on the phone even at 1pm as long as she's not disturbing others. But your sister should not be ok with new calls coming in and ringing for all to hear at 11pm.
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amother




Purple


Post  Thu, Feb 07 2019, 8:55 am
Ra mom, if the girl would have her own phone, no one would be calling the house at night. Its unfair that an adult child shouldnt be able to make any phone calls after 11.
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amother




White


Post  Thu, Feb 07 2019, 9:10 am
ra_mom wrote:
Why is your sister allowing people to call the house after 11? It's not menchlach. Maybe that's why your mom had to impose such a seemingly unfair policy. Your mom shouldn't stop your sister from speaking on the phone even at 1pm as long as she's not disturbing others. But your sister should not be ok with new calls coming in and ringing for all to hear at 11pm.


In the very first post, OP specifies that it is not just the ringing phone that bothers her parents. Her parents dont want her sister (the kallah) "up at all hours discussing shtissim" is what OP wrote and also that her father says it is a bad example for the other kids.
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sequoia




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Feb 07 2019, 9:14 am
As several posters have mentioned, texting, unlike calling, is silent and doesn’t bother others. Yet the mother specifically confiscated her adult daughter’s cell phone. Enough with conflating several issues. This isn’t about being considerate of others. It’s about... I don’t even know what to call it? Treating an adult like a child? Or on the contrary, marrying off children?
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Chayalle




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Feb 07 2019, 9:19 am
amother wrote:
Chayalle, your 20 year old daughter never talks on the phone at night past 11??


No, she's an early bird (like her Mom). She goes to sleep at about that time and gets up early, goes to work early, etc....

But that's not the point. If she would have a need to talk to someone at a late hour, she would do so in a way that it does not disturb the rest of the family.

And overall, I do believe that getting enough sleep at night is important for a healthy, balanced teen.
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ra_mom




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Feb 07 2019, 9:21 am
amother wrote:
In the very first post, OP specifies that it is not just the ringing phone that bothers her parents. Her parents dont want her sister (the kallah) "up at all hours discussing shtissim" is what OP wrote and also that her father says it is a bad example for the other kids.

Then this kallah needs to put on her big girl undies and say Ma, Ta, I'm an adult and you can't treat me like a child anymore. I bought this cell phone and it belongs to me, so respect my possessions. I will respect your need for quiet at night.
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amother




Goldenrod


Post  Thu, Feb 07 2019, 9:29 am
sequoia wrote:
As several posters have mentioned, texting, unlike calling, is silent and doesn’t bother others. Yet the mother specifically confiscated her adult daughter’s cell phone. Enough with conflating several issues. This isn’t about being considerate of others. It’s about... I don’t even know what to call it? Treating an adult like a child? Or on the contrary, marrying off children?


According to OP both mother and daughter agree that daughter shouldn't have phones... and its not actually daughter's phone... it belongs to someone else.

There were two things OP mentioned - "Our mother eventually finds these phones or hears my sister talking and takes them away". I guess when I read this I didn't imagine mom is going through her daughter's stuff.

When does a person become an adult?
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amother




Turquoise


Post  Thu, Feb 07 2019, 9:32 am
this topic is so triggering for me! please op do everything you can to help your sister have some freedom... I have an abusive parent and before my wedding he drove me nuts , made me be home early made go to sleep on time...it made the time so stressful but either way I did what worked for me cuz I have learnt how to look out for myself... please step in and explain to your parents why your sister needs to have her freedom.
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amother




Amethyst


Post  Thu, Feb 07 2019, 9:43 am
Chassidish here too
I still have nightmares of my parents taking away phone privileges when I was in high school. It was demeaning, and incredibly stifling. It made me feel trapped. Out of everything they put me through this stands out in my mind.
As a kallah they still controlled me in many ways but at least I had my cell phone that I paid for myself.
Ops sister is most likely working. She can definitely get her own phone and be careful with it. But those dynamics aren’t healthy at all. If at all possible it might be best for her to move out for a bit.
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sequoia




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Feb 07 2019, 9:50 am
amother wrote:


When does a person become an adult?


Legally? At 18. In this community? That’s what we’re trying to figure out.

However.

A person who isn’t an adult in every sense of the word and recognized as such has no business getting married. This young woman’s engaged.

So either a) her mother is treating an adult like a child, confiscating her phone, trying to control, not realizing the time for chinuch has passed or b) they’re marrying off a child.

It can’t be both. You can’t say “you’re old enough to enter into a lifelong relationship, run a household, have zex, and bear and raise children, but not old enough to decide to have a cell phone and text your friends.”
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Zehava




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Feb 07 2019, 9:54 am
sequoia wrote:
Legally? At 18. In this community? That’s what we’re trying to figure out.

However.

A person who isn’t an adult in every sense of the word and recognized as such has no business getting married. This young woman’s engaged.

So either a) her mother is treating an adult like a child, confiscating her phone, trying to control, not realizing the time for chinuch has passed or b) they’re marrying off a child.

It can’t be both. You can’t say “you’re old enough to enter into a lifelong relationship, run a household, have zex, and bear and raise children, but not old enough to decide to have a cell phone and text your friends.”

This is why in the chassidish world couples are many times treated like children.
Suppers and shabbos meals for the first year. Shabbos food for much longer. Moving in with the mother after having a baby. Financial support for the first year or couple years if the parents can afford it.
And the flip side of parents thinking they have a say in the couples decisions such as baby naming, what headgear to wear, where to be for YT, and so on.
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amother




Goldenrod


Post  Thu, Feb 07 2019, 9:56 am
sequoia wrote:
Legally? At 18. In this community? That’s what we’re trying to figure out.

However.

A person who isn’t an adult in every sense of the word and recognized as such has no business getting married. This young woman’s engaged.

So either a) her mother is treating an adult like a child, confiscating her phone, trying to control, not realizing the time for chinuch has passed or b) they’re marrying off a child.

It can’t be both. You can’t say “you’re old enough to enter into a lifelong relationship, run a household, have zex, and bear and raise children, but not old enough to decide to have a cell phone and text your friends.


I guess to me it comes down to if this is a 'mother rule' or a 'community rule' that mother is enforcing... and it seemed to me to be the latter.
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amother




Smokey


Post  Thu, Feb 07 2019, 9:58 am
amother wrote:
Chassidish here too
I still have nightmares of my parents taking away phone privileges when I was in high school. It was demeaning, and incredibly stifling. It made me feel trapped. Out of everything they put me through this stands out in my mind.
As a kallah they still controlled me in many ways but at least I had my cell phone that I paid for myself.
Ops sister is most likely working. She can definitely get her own phone and be careful with it. But those dynamics aren’t healthy at all. If at all possible it might be best for her to move out for a bit.


Not Chassidisih. I was raised by very strict parents, and expected to ask my parents' permission every time I used the phone. This inevitably lead to a conversation about who I was calling, for how long I would be speaking, and it invited my mother to listen in to the conversation (including when it was my Chassan) if she so desired, with no privacy for me.

It's not something I repeat with my children. I resented it big time, and basically told DH to call me at work....
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urban gypsy




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Feb 07 2019, 10:41 am
Aren't phones expensive? I understand that you get them from work but doesn't your work need them back? Where do you work that you get dozens of free phones to keep?
Who pays for the phone bill of these phones???
I'm pictured a locked drawer in a desk with 50 phones rattling around in there....
I have to know what your mom does with all the confiscated phones!!!
This is going to drive me crazy....
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forgetit




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Feb 07 2019, 10:47 am
I don't think this situation is the norm at all in most chassidish homes (and I don't think we're seeing the full picture), but that's not what OP asked about.
To address your q, I would say don't supply phones and stay out of it. Don't give advice either -- that may come back to bite you when your mom finds out, or if it doesnt work out well for your sister and she'll be upset at YOU.
If your sis is engaged she'll be out of the house pretty soon and have freedom she needs/wants. If she lived this long under their roof, I'm hoping she'll hold the peace for another bit and then move on. If she wouldnt be engaged yet, and looking at indefinite amount of time being stifled, maybe I'd see things differently. If you step in now you may ruin your relationship with your mom and sis (I'm assuming you have an ok one with both).
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Chayalle




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Feb 07 2019, 10:49 am
amother wrote:
In the very first post, OP specifies that it is not just the ringing phone that bothers her parents. Her parents dont want her sister (the kallah) "up at all hours discussing shtissim" is what OP wrote and also that her father says it is a bad example for the other kids.


If my 20-year-old DD was up to all hours just shmoozing, I would bring my concerns to her attention, but I wouldn't take her phone away. Discussing my concerns with her as a mother is appropriate; taking away her possessions is controlling and disrespectful.
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amother




Yellow


Post  Thu, Feb 07 2019, 11:28 am
urban gypsy wrote:
Aren't phones expensive? I understand that you get them from work but doesn't your work need them back? Where do you work that you get dozens of free phones to keep?
Who pays for the phone bill of these phones???
I'm pictured a locked drawer in a desk with 50 phones rattling around in there....
I have to know what your mom does with all the confiscated phones!!!
This is going to drive me crazy....


DH has a lot of employees and pays for their phones. Our mother throws them away.
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urban gypsy




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Feb 07 2019, 11:31 am
amother wrote:
DH has a lot of employees and pays for their phones. Our mother throws them away.


Thanks so much for replying. I just can't fathom this level of waste on your mom's part. Taking them away and saying she will give them back contingent on xyz, I could understand. But throwing multiple cell phones in the garbage is completely bizarre! Does she know that your sister gets them from you?
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amother




Goldenrod


Post  Thu, Feb 07 2019, 11:34 am
urban gypsy wrote:
Thanks so much for replying. I just can't fathom this level of waste on your mom's part. Taking them away and saying she will give them back contingent on xyz, I could understand. But throwing multiple cell phones in the garbage is completely bizarre! Does she know that your sister gets them from you?


Contingent on being married :-)
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