Can you guess why this school only allowed 5% to take SATs?

Fox

Mon, Feb 11 2019, 6:47 pm

Amarante wrote:

Why isn't household management something that for both genders to learn?

Agree with you in theory and regarding the fascinating history of homemaking. That said, we aren't even at the point of regarding it as noble work for the people who do the preponderance of it, let alone anyone else.

chmom

Tue, Feb 12 2019, 3:57 am

ectomorph wrote:

So what is their plan to pay back 200k in loans, or do they have rich parents

I think most of the arguments regarding doctors here only apply to physicians in the USA
As a non American, not working in the USA I work within a totally different framework and have zero student loans
I believe many of the reasons of discontent lie within the system and NOT the job itself

PinkFridge

Tue, Feb 12 2019, 4:58 am

Ravenclaw wrote:

This is the first I am hearing of this. I always knew that for years women managed the household tasks. I would love to hear more. Do you have any links/books on this?

Just want to throw in that years ago I read a BY convention booklet on the theme she'asani kirtzono based on Rav Hirsch and IIRC he said that thanks to the Industrial Revolution men's lives are becoming much easier. (Think of the book Zalman's Menorah.) He said that with time women would catch up.

We b"H have so many conveniences. That we are doing more is due to more possessions and more obligations, IMO. Of course there's no reason men shouldn't share and that we can't otherwise delegate. But this is something to bear in mind, I think.

PinkFridge

Tue, Feb 12 2019, 4:59 am

Amarante wrote:

It's a fun and informative subject. ay.

This looks fascinating! I'm going to get these out.

Have you read Fannie's Last Supper about cooking in the Victorian era?

amother

Olive

Tue, Feb 12 2019, 5:44 am

still think its such a misnomer and unfair to say "this school only let 5% take...."
never heard of such a thing
who even knows

could be true could be not true could be more nuanced
or just more fodder for the anti semitic anti frum bashing

there is a more productive way to go about improvement

Amarante

Tue, Feb 12 2019, 6:45 am

PinkFridge wrote:

This looks fascinating! I'm going to get these out.

Have you read Fannie's Last Supper about cooking in the Victorian era?

Thanks for prodding my memory as I actually have the book in my collection and I've added it to my file of books that I want to read sooner than later Very Happy

Not quite the

DrMom

Tue, Feb 12 2019, 8:54 am

amother wrote:

DrMom wrote:

Quote:

I'm confused about the entire concept of a school "letting" students take SAT tests.

Can't you register for the SAT test on your own? Why do you need the school's permission?

Did you read the article? The author claims she didn't know anything about SATs and couldn't find info online as there was no internet policy she adhered to. A few top students took it cause the school wanted them to.

She knew enough to know she wanted to take this important test.

You can find info on SATs in bookstores or public libraries. This information is readily available in any town in the US with a library or bookstore, let alone a major metropolitan city like NYC.

You don't need $$ SAT prep classes. Get a prep book from Barnes & Noble, or borrow one from the library.

I don't agree with these policies (but then again, not my hashkafa), but if you know enough to know you want to take this test, the info is definitely accessible.

amother

Royalblue

Tue, Feb 12 2019, 9:24 am

amother wrote:

I assume she went to Touro? Then she must have taken the SATs at some point.

No, not necessarily. There are equivalent / other measures they can use instead. I graduated from Touro and never took the SATs. I did not grow up here, though, and did not attend an American high school.

amother

Apricot

Tue, Feb 12 2019, 9:41 am

DrMom wrote:

Oh, absolutely. And she did go to Touro, it seems. And then on to Master's. But people love blaming others for everything in their lives, it seems

amother

Apricot

Tue, Feb 12 2019, 9:43 am

I'd imagine she went to seminary that gave college credits, then went to touro? Then SAT wasn't needed?
Otherwise I'm unclear how she ended up in college without SAT.

amother

Lavender

Tue, Feb 12 2019, 11:23 am

amother wrote:

Oh, absolutely. And she did go to Touro, it seems. And then on to Master's. But people love blaming others for everything in their lives, it seems

Also, this is a really minor point against the author's pool of confusing complaints, but Touro is a not-for-profit school system.

Chayalle

Tue, Feb 12 2019, 11:25 am

imorethanamother wrote:

'
Actually, your sister would have done far better if she had gone to medical school. "Part Time" is a very loose term for nurses. Doctors who work part time make far, far, far more than nurses, and most don't have to work the night shift for the rest of their lives like nurses do.

My sister is a doctor, and she once told me that if she had known how time consuming it would be, she might've gone for a lesser degree (she mentioned something like physical therapy, which interested her.)

OBnursemom

Tue, Feb 12 2019, 11:36 am

Funny. I went to Bais Yaakov. We took SATs, ACTs, and CLEPs. We had girls in my class who became part of the State Honor Society and who gained admission to Phi Beta Kappa. I must be part of a different religion? Or maybe I just don’t feel the need to make up sensational stories. And I admit I’m offended by her dismissal of nurses- like we’re intellectual lightweights. There are millions of nurses in the US. Most of us are not Orthodox Jews.

Chayalle

Tue, Feb 12 2019, 11:59 am

OBnursemom wrote:

Same - I went to BY and we took SAT's, we had college courses in our senior year, and I know of girls in my high school who went on to Ivy League colleges.

However, my older sister went to a different BY in a different city, and they were totally different. When she wanted to go to medical school, they gave her a hard time releasing her transcripts, offering her instead (like it could possibly compare) that they are looking for a biology teacher.

I've learned that not all BY's are the same.

Amarante

Tue, Feb 12 2019, 12:15 pm

DrMom wrote:

That's not accurate as most good high schools will have counselors specifically there to help students explore all available options.

And in today's universe, someone who attempts to take SAT's without preparation is at a disadvantage since it is the norm for middle class kids to take take prep classes and also receive advice on how to approach taking the SAT's.

One can feel that promoting a cloistered approach is okay but to claim that doing so doesn't realistically impact on many students' ability to do stuff outside of the limitations imposed by the gestalt of the school is disingenuous.

The reality is that people don't know what they don't know so it would be an exceptional kid who would know enough to explore options that weren't presented to them. The reality is that most kids aren't that exceptional in terms of seeing themselves outside of the box and don't have families that have that kind of knowledge or inclination.

Schools differ and it seems to be the luck of the draw in terms of whether a kid winds up in a school that provides them with options or whether they are presently with severely circumscribed options.

amother

Yellow

Tue, Feb 12 2019, 1:51 pm

Fox wrote:

It’s hard to make that case when cleaning lady is a job that only immigrants without prospects want and even SAHMs prefer to outsource cleaning if possible. On a thread today a poster found it offensive to be asked to take out her garbage at work since she doesn’t do that at home.

A_Mother_First

Tue, Feb 12 2019, 1:55 pm

Maya wrote:

I agree. Her “struggles” are nowhere near the level of struggles that Chassidish men face when they have to go out in the real world, and her attempt to compare herself - a regular educated woman who attended college - to men who can’t speak or read or write a word of English is petty and ridiculous, and undermines the efforts of YAFFED.

Why does everyone feel like they have to tell a story, when there is nothing really to tell.

Putting quotation marks around the word struggles is disrespectful. Who are you to decide and define what a struggle is for someone else? Just because her story may not be as dramatic or as a clear cut case of educational deprivation as the boys' yeshivas does not make it less real for her. I disagree with her about taking her gripes out publicly (not something I would personally choose to do), but she is entitled to her frustration and even anger. What is 'good enough' education for many frum women may not be good enough for her. We do not know that the facts she had stated are not true, and just because most of us know BY schools where taking SATs is the norm, does not mean that her story did not happen or that it is not worth telling. Somehow, I do not think she made it up.

OBnursemom

Tue, Feb 12 2019, 2:25 pm

[quote=]I've learned that not all BY's are the same.[/quote]

In other words, she’s angry she went to the wrong school. Don’t blame it on BY.

amother

Seafoam

Tue, Feb 12 2019, 2:37 pm

no comment about school policies but don't think I ever took an sat prep course. I think I did some practice exams...I did fine and got a scholarship based on my results. I wouldn't say you are disadvantaged just because you don't take a course. the bigger question is how well read etc. you are.

amother

Bronze

Tue, Feb 12 2019, 2:44 pm

Here's my issue even with the schools that do "allow" kids to take the PSAT, SAT, etc- they give no guidance on college admissions.

I went to a BY-type high school which is known in the NY area for putting a great emphasis on academics. There were pros and cons to its approach, but I left there knowing that I had the tools to do whatever I wanted with my life, even if the school might prefer a specific direction. I know girls who went to Harvard from my school, who don't live the BY lifestyle that the principals would surely want them to live but say that there was nothing academically speaking at Harvard that our high school left them unprepared for.

A big part of this was college preparation and advising. We took the PSAT twice- in tenth and eleventh grades- and the PLAN (pre-ACT) as well. Those who qualified for NMSQT were encouraged to apply, and every year the school has multiple commended students and my year was the only girls-only Jewish school in the state to have finalists. We had mandatory SAT prep classes once a week in math and English, and were encouraged to take both exams in eleventh grade to see which one we did better on so that we could study and retake in time for college applications. If a student got a scholarship or won a competition, it was announced and lauded in front of the school and at graduation. We were given application calendars of popular schools, with early decision deadlines and regular deadlines, and we were taught the difference. We were taught how to write application essays, how to prepare for honors program interviews. The school brought in representatives from honors programs at multiple NY area schools, not just Jewish ones, and while I'm sure privately some administrators had very specific ideas about which to attend, the school never did anything to discourage a student from making her choice. (They were far more likely to try when it came to seminary, lol, but that's another story.) There was a system for requesting recommendation letters, and I received permission at one point to take a day off school so I could visit a college I was interested in attending (and later got a significant scholarship to attend).

Upshot is, they were super supportive and made sure we knew what we were doing when it came to application time.

My sister recently graduated high school at a community Bais Yaakov. She's in seminary now and she still has friends who haven't yet taken the SAT- those who will take it at all will take it in the summer and apply to Touro Flatbush in August. They have no idea that it is typical for people retaking the SAT to improve by 50 points WITHOUT STUDYING, and much more with studying- points which could significantly improve students' chances at getting merit-based aid. They took the PSAT, sure, but treated it as a one-off event, not something which, if they succeeded at it, could be leveraged for merit-based aid on college applications. Some of them did not know that the ACT even existed, and that it offered a different test with which some students are more successful. The school actually has a financial relationship with one of the frummie programs, so when several parents tried to get together to make a college prep information night for students, bringing in a representative from Touro Manhattan to give some advice on applications, the school blocked it. They provided college credits to students without giving them any information on how transferable those credits very often aren't, and replaced the one AP course they used to offer with an accredited course from a local college. They gave no information about honors programs which students can apply to- if, of course, they've taken the SAT/ACT in advance, which few have- and which can mean a very substantial reduction in tuition.

Her friends now can be divided into two camps- the ones who are going to frummie programs because that's what they want, and the ones who are going to frummie programs/the local community college because they didn't wake up until the tail end of twelfth grade and realize that there are other options out there which might serve their needs better. When I say frummie programs, I don't mean Stern or Touro Manhattan- MAYBE Touro Flatbush, and much more likely Sarah Schenirer, TTI, or other similar programs. There is a place for them, certainly, but many students want something different and aren't given the tools to know how to get that. My sister is going to a frum college, but it's because she wants to go there, and she's going to be in the honors program because my parents, having been through the process before, made sure that she took all of her tests on time, applied early, and concentrated on writing an essay and getting recommendations from her secular studies teachers and not just her Judaics ones for seminary.

At the end of the day, did my sister get a good secular education? Sure- she got excellent scores on her Regents exams and SAT, took a full complement of secular studies classes including extracurriculars. She is also college ready. But many of her classmates, despite receiving the same secular education, are not college ready, because their school's administration made the active choice not to allow them to be, costing them not just opportunity cost but actual scholarship money. It's an incredible shame, and while of course not nearly at the same level as the lack of education in many boys' schools, it's a problem nonetheless.