Poverty doesn't have to equal neglect, s/o micdrop

amother

Pink

Fri, Feb 15 2019, 12:20 am

crust wrote:

She mentioned that since that Shabbos she did this every time there wasn't enough Amother pink. But that's not my point.

Why do you have to invent so many 'could've been' scenarios- all for the same set of parents? The overall situation screams of neglect and of putting everyone else before their own kids.

And we didn't even discuss that she hosted her younger sibling in CH. Perhaps parentified is a better word. To the ones screaming on the other thread that she ran away from home, so did this other child also run away from home? Gevald.

No. I didn't send away my child to another city without the bare necessities or arrangements. I won't. I hope you also won't.

I am not sure I should continue this dialogue because I honestly don't know the whole story.

I just don't like when a spade is called a butterfly.

She did = she asked her mother if there was plenty of chicken, not that her mother asked her.

"Without the bare necessities or arrangements" - I don't know if that is accurate, like I tried to demonstrate, it is quite likely that her parents thought she had what she need.

Hosting younger sibling - again, I don't understand why you're so harsh. Your older daughter seems to be boarding happily by her friends home, and having an amazing time in this high school. She encourages you to send your younger daughter there too. You call the parents and they say it is fine with them, as long as your older daughter thinks there's enough space in her room. It doesn't occur to you what the reality is, and your daughters don't enlighten you at all.

I don't know why anyone thinks she ran away from home. But although I wouldn't have my child make her own arrangements, neither do I have any children that would be capable of doing so, unlike Chava's parents.

I'm not calling this a butterfly, but not sure it's a spade either. I'm sure all of us will now be more careful about sending children away from home, and helping out if we see a teen that seems to be taking too much responsibility on herself. That's called awareness, and it's a good thing - hopefully one of the points of the speech.

Deciding that her parents were neglectful? I think they were acting on information they were given, and didn't realize that they needed to dig deeper.

amother

Amber

Fri, Feb 15 2019, 2:19 am

Many people become overwhelmed by lack of money. By never knowing how they will pay for something. By living on nissim.
The money issue completed consumes their lives. It’s like a boulder over their heads.
In such trying circumstances they simply aren’t able to focus is seemingly minor matters ie their child accomodation or hairbrush. Kids do become very independent in such cases.
Take a look at many chareidi communities in EY where you have little kids going on buses solo or with an “older” sibling no older than 9.
Is that neglect? No. Does it bother my sensitivities? Yes.
I grew up poor. Immigrant parents. Shoes cut out to make room for growing feet. No proper school uniform. But I was & remain happy.
Others tell me “you had such a hard childhood “
But I never thought so.
I dreamed of having things (like a barbie doll) & I knew that if I worked hard in school then I stood a chance of one day affording “stuff”.

amother

Aubergine

Fri, Feb 15 2019, 4:12 am

I grew up in a family where money wasn't an issue. Yet we were terribly neglected because my mom is selfish and never cared about anyone besides herself.
All my siblings got to wear clothes from our cleaning ladies who had kids and gave us their used clothes. So me and my sisters were wearing boys underwear etc because my mother didn't care to get us out own clothes and the cleaning ladies had 2 sons each.
We got leftover food, sometimes the sandwiches I took to school were moldy. I still don't understand why noone ever said anything, why my father never said anything. He says now that he never realized, he was busy working. He gave my mother plenty of money but she spent it all on herself.
When I was 8 I started stealing money to buy food for my siblings and I, and only stopped when I was 13 and got caught. My older siblings got a job and that's when we kids finally had money to buy normal clothes and food for ourselves.
I know plenty of people who grew up in poor families who had a much better childhood than we did.

renslet

Fri, Feb 15 2019, 4:42 am

So, you what's interesting. If you read her blog or Instagram ( both easily googleable) she seems to have a great relationship with her family. She left her toddler with them for two days while she went on vacation with her husband, her mother came (and stayed for a while) after her son's birth, etc.
She definitely sounds like she grew up poor but I'm wondering if her usage of the word neglect has the same connetation that we are interpreting.
Also hairbrushes are $3/4, bris rivkale shabbaton is over $100, so it could also be that she scrimped and saved to go to all extra curricular stuff, something that not every kid, even from crown heights goes to every year.
Just speculation!
I'd love for her to respond, does anyone know her IRL.

amother

Brunette

Fri, Feb 15 2019, 5:08 am

amother wrote:

I'm sorry you lived this horrible way. I'm so disturbed by you wearing your cleaning ladies' sons' underwear. No one outside the family noticed- like in camp?

amother

Oak

Fri, Feb 15 2019, 6:40 am

My husband grew up very poor. They lived from food stamps sometimes there were spider webs in their cereal also they always need to go to charity shops.
Once the Rosh Yeshivah decided that the bocherim needed to wear Shabbos shoes during the week, dh families could not afford extra shoes for him also they only had clothes from charity shops.
My MIL and FIL wanted to become frum and they became but were not guided in this. When a rav said that giving tzedakka is making you rich they gave a lot of tzedakka. All of their children (except dh and my youngest sil) went to a crisis with drugs/anorexia/shopaddiction and so on (getting married saved them). One SIL had screamed ''You take more care of being religious then being healthy or lucky'' which was kinda true if I'm talking with a SIL how she feels the youth of our husbands. That is kinda neglecting although I believe and I know that they love their children and grandchildren but especially my MIL wanted to become very religious kinda lost herself in that. She is paying everything for a BIL who is living a kollellife so the other children in shidduchim need to pay for their own weddings. Cause MIL learned once that supporting a talmid chacham is the most important thing or soemthing like that. This is what some of my inlaws are angry at. My husband choose not to be angry at the proverty they had and does not care while his brother cares a lot about all of this.

I believe especially in Chabad Slichus ( I know a lot of them) living in poverty is not necessary neglecting. Of course not. Neglecting as I see is being busy with yourself and not with your children...

P.S I don't blame my inlaws, I learned this from my DH who is always mindfull and accepting about this. '' I know what my brother tells about our parents... And he is still angry but I want you to think positively about my parents they are loving people who could not provide for us while we were growing up but they are lovely people they thought what they did was good. And I make sure I will not let this happen to our family it is past and we can't change it''.

There are always things we can blame our parents or our inlaws if we find something that damaged our husbands. It is our choice what to with that. Proverty is not nice and some parents choose to teach their kids that being guestfree or something is more important then Hugo Boss suit for your bar mitzwah bocher for instance Wink

DVOM

Fri, Feb 15 2019, 6:46 am

My husband grew up in abject poverty. I'm almost scared to post this, as I did once before and my beloved in-laws were bashed a bit, but I'm going to try again. He grew up very poor, but never felt neglected. He feels his poverty made him hardy and strong, creative and optimistic, and he's right. My brothers' and sisters' in law are an independent, robust bunch, capable and hardworking and good-humored. My parents in law have the rare quality of loving each of their children (and in law children) exactly as they are. They are deeply curious about their kid's and now grandkids inner lives, and convey their love with time spent and focused attention (As my in-laws live in Isreal, we have only scraped together the money to visit them once in the past 11 years since we're married. I will never forget watching my father in law spend a full hour and a half discussing the various merits of different Marvel superheroes with my then 6-year-old son. Their love is such that what is important to you is passionately important to them, even if you are six, and what is important to you is spiderman and thor.)

But the poverty my husband grew up with was very real. He did not have his own pillow. He slept on the porch. Electricity and water were shut off frequently. If he wanted new clothing, shampoo, toys, from about age 12 and on he worked for and earned these things himself. At age 6 he was taking city buses too and from school, on his own. He came to America, on his own, at 17, with no money, no place to stay, and experienced real hunger and homelessness. His parents knew about some of it, were worried for him, but did not have the means to do much about it aside from trying to connect him with various relatives here who could help him. Were they neglectful? I don't think so. Most of my husband's friends were raised under similar circumstances. Doing without and shifting for yourself was the norm. I know we make different financial decisions than they did and are raising our children differently. My in-laws did the best they could and raised wonderful children who love, respect and appreciate them.

southernbubby

Fri, Feb 15 2019, 8:46 am

My own father grew up as a fatherless child of the great Depression and was fending for himself at an early age. Although there were some happy memories, he would buy things for himself as an adult to make up for the deprived child that he was.

Maybe it should be a spin off but I think that much of the hyper spending in the frum community is due to the Holocaust generation that had been severely deprived. The candy man in shul, I am told, is that after the Holocaust people celebrated the very sight of small children but that prior to the war, there was no candy men in shuls. Today kids just assume that they will get candy in shul but this has it's roots in making up for lost childhoods.
My mother also cut the toes out of our shoes to get a bit more wear out of them and although we had toys, a dog, and a television, it was still embarrassing and I am amazed when people feel that it didn't affect them.

amother

Pearl

Fri, Feb 15 2019, 4:21 pm

Watching that video made me sad too. From the looks of things, (I googled and facebook stalked) the mother does not seem malicious though. In fact, the family looks quite close together and sweet. It sounds a bit like "the glass castle" by Jeanette Walls in which the parents are actually quite loving and sweet but are missing the tools on how to care for their kids. It actually makes me wonder how many more neglected kids are out there due to parents who are a bit "unaware" or mentally unable to take care of their kids physical needs. Funny how we need licenses to drive, to teach, to do almost any job....but there is no obligatory course out there and no license needed to be a parent.

amother

Green

Sat, Feb 16 2019, 6:05 pm

amother wrote:

I was also reminded of the glass castle although you can't really compare the level of neglect and poverty.

amother

Babyblue

Sat, Feb 16 2019, 7:54 pm

amother wrote:

"Mommy, I want to go away to high school!"
"I know, sweetheart, but we really can't afford that."
"But I REALLY want to!"
"Okay, I'll ask the school."
...
"Well, tuition is a lot less than I was expecting, but I don't think we can do it anyhow. It's very expensive to get to New York, and we can't afford to pay for boarding."
"I have money saved up from babysitting!"
"That's just enough to get you to New York."
"So that's what I need!"
"But where will you stay then?"
"Rivky's house!"
"On Crown Street? Where you stayed that week after camp?"
"Yes."
"Are you sure that Rivky's family is okay with that?"
"I'll ask her."
...
"Rivky said her parents agreed!"
"I know Rivky's family, they are good and responsible. They really agreed?"
"Yes, I just asked her!"
"Okay, if you're sure..."
(Take daughter to bus station with sandwiches for the way)
"Hatzlacha Rabbah! Call us to let us know everything is okay!"
...
"Mommy, it's AMAZING here! I LOVE it!"
"That's wonderful, sweetheart! I'm glad we agreed to send you."
...
"Do you need any spending money, dear?"
"No, I'm fine! Save it for the kids at home! I have babysitting money."
"Are you sure?"
"Yes, of course!"
"Okay, I'll buy them a treat from you. We miss you!"
...
"Do you have enough clothing, sweetheart? Do you need me to send you anything?"
"No, I'm great! I got stuff at a gemach here, it's all tznius and fits perfect!"

She grew up in a place where there was no Jewish high school option. she had to go away, or be home schooled and it's the parents duty to arrange it.

I'm okay with not affording things like summer camp and clothing at full price.
but this story smells neglect.
also, resilience and strength. we also dont know the whole story. she mentions a story in 9th grade and then taking bread from school lunches in 12th. did her parents help her along the way to find accomidations? did they ever offer her money or not? were they loving and caring people and gave her the confidence she needed in life?
we just dont know. and that's ok, we dont want to judge. it's her story and let's each take away what we can learn from it.
I wonder how her parents/siblings must feel with her story and perspective being posted all over the internet. not so fair, even for good people, or neglectful people.

amother

Papaya

Sat, Feb 16 2019, 8:05 pm

crust wrote:

it sounds like amother pink IS her mother. Id be careful with how you respond.

amother

Pink

Sat, Feb 16 2019, 8:14 pm

amother wrote:

it sounds like amother pink IS her mother. Id be careful with how you respond.

I'm not related to her and don't know anyone in her family.

I am just shocked at the harshness in this thread. I can totally see something like this happening in a caring family, especially to a child who wants to protect her parents, from poverty and negativity.

I know myself how rarely I ever called my parents for money when I went away to school. It didn't even OCCUR to me to ask them for money after I got married. I remember not telling them about all sorts of hard times I was having, because I knew that they couldn't do anything about it anyhow and it would just make them feel bad for no purpose.

In the story that this thread is about, if you recall, she specifically wanted to go away to Beis Rivkah. The implication is that there was another choice closer to home. I imagine part of her thought process in not telling her parents was "If I tell them what it's really like, they'll never let me stay!"

If you re-watch it in that light, it makes much more sense.

amother

Papaya

Sat, Feb 16 2019, 8:55 pm

I was raised the same way. and the funny thing is I dont feel like I grew up poor or neglected in the slightest. I wanted clothing or shoes or to be able to go on school shabbatons in high school- I babysat and paid for it myself. My parents never paid for a thing for me from the age of 14 and on other than my high school tuition. I was very independent and resourceful and hearing her story made me stop and question- wait was I neglected? Did I grow up poor?The funny thing is, until hearing her story I never even thought that for a second. I just thought I was normal, and my friends who spent their friday afternoons shopping with their parents credit cards, or whose parents paid for their shabbatons were incredibly spoiled! So many of her stories were similar to mine. I used to save the leftover school lunches and bring them home and I was so proud of myself for bringing home extra food that would have otherwise gone to the garbage. what a waste of food!
If her parents were able to pay for chicken for what they thought would be 10 guests- they dont sound so poor.
nor neglectful. sounds like she took on the role of being responsible and independent on herself and was happy about it!
and sounds like years later someone put the idea into her head that she was a victim.
she is not a victim.

southernbubby

Sat, Feb 16 2019, 9:53 pm

amother wrote:

These are the types of stories that I feel that people need to hear. Poverty is a big issue in the frum community but it depends on how poverty is defined. I also worked throughout my teens and viewed kids whose parents still paid for everything as spoiled and immature.

It looks like those kids who had to learn early how to earn and budget money were more equipped to handle it when they got married.

I also think that it's healthy for people in general to realize just how little previous generations had and that we are wealthier than we realize.