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Losing my faith in humanity
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Feb 22 2019, 5:03 am
Over a century ago, many frum Jews who came to America, were told to either work on Shabbos or lose their jobs. I guess that scamming either wasn't an option or it was viewed that working on Shabbos was a lesser aveira than stealing.
If you look today, their descendants are not frum while the children of fraudsters are. That may be one reason why we treat fraudsters as victims of anti-Semitism instead of crooks.
To me, the simple answer would be to live simply but it is the luxury businesses whose money holds up the community so rabbonim are often hesitant to promote too much simplicity.
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grace413




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Feb 22 2019, 5:15 am
southernbubby wrote:
Over a century ago, many frum Jews who came to America, were told to either work on Shabbos or lose their jobs. I guess that scamming either wasn't an option or it was viewed that working on Shabbos was a lesser aveira than stealing.
If you look today, their descendants are not frum while the children of fraudsters are. That may be one reason why we treat fraudsters as victims of anti-Semitism instead of crooks.
To me, the simple answer would be to live simply but it is the luxury businesses whose money holds up the community so rabbonim are often hesitant to promote too much simplicity.


People who are scamming others are not frum. They are pretending to be frum. I don't claim to be perfect but my aveirot aren't destroying other people.

Fraudsters are not victims of anti-Semitism. I had one grandfather who didn't work on Shabbat - some of his kids are frum and some aren't. The other grandfather did work on Shabbat but his only child did stay frum as did his grandchildren.

The sooner we treat fraudsters as crooks the better off we will be.
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amother
Aqua


 

Post Fri, Feb 22 2019, 5:21 am
People don't learn don't give any private person your money - only legally like really estate and solid companies on the stock market
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Feb 22 2019, 5:38 am
I remember when MLMs were the rage in the frum community and loads of frum people fell for it and sunk money into it. Eventually some rabbonim started to caution the community not to fall for it.
Maybe we need more education on how not to get rich quick.
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watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Feb 22 2019, 5:42 am
southernbubby wrote:
I remember when MLMs were the rage in the frum community and loads of frum people fell for it and sunk money into it. Eventually some rabbonim started to caution the community not to fall for it.
Maybe we need more education on how not to get rich quick.

When did MLMs stop being the rage? Optavia, LLR, jewelry and makeup... tons of frum people hocking their MLMs. Its alive and well.
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amother
Lilac


 

Post Fri, Feb 22 2019, 5:48 am
southernbubby wrote:
Over a century ago, many frum Jews who came to America, were told to either work on Shabbos or lose their jobs. I guess that scamming either wasn't an option or it was viewed that working on Shabbos was a lesser aveira than stealing.
If you look today, their descendants are not frum while the children of fraudsters are. That may be one reason why we treat fraudsters as victims of anti-Semitism instead of crooks.
To me, the simple answer would be to live simply but it is the luxury businesses whose money holds up the community so rabbonim are often hesitant to promote too much simplicity.


What do you mean by the bolded? In my community the majority of financial backing for institutions comes from business people who do things like commercial real estate and owning medical institutions. Totally unrelated to the luxury market.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Feb 22 2019, 5:59 am
amother wrote:
What do you mean by the bolded? In my community the majority of financial backing for institutions comes from business people who do things like commercial real estate and owning medical institutions. Totally unrelated to the luxury market.


I see the weekly frum ads for luxury housing, vacations, high end furniture, renovations, clothing, jewelry, etc. Busses take frum people from Monsey to the diamond district so it looks like many businesses cater to the high end market and these businesses contribute to the community.
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amother
Lilac


 

Post Fri, Feb 22 2019, 6:01 am
southernbubby wrote:
I see the weekly frum ads for luxury housing, vacations, high end furniture, renovations, clothing, jewelry, etc. Busses take frum people from Monsey to the diamond district so it looks like many businesses cater to the high end market and these businesses contribute to the community.


I guess things are different oot. None of those businesses are upholding our community, even though we do have many wealthy community members.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Feb 22 2019, 6:04 am
watergirl wrote:
When did MLMs stop being the rage? Optavia, LLR, jewelry and makeup... tons of frum people hocking their MLMs. Its alive and well.


I remember that years ago, there was the Amway craziness where people spent more on overpriced products than they earned and then came along blue green algae which was supposed to cure everything.
I know a few people who hock Optavia and jewelry but not as many as it was in it's heyday.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Feb 22 2019, 6:06 am
amother wrote:
I guess things are different oot. None of those businesses are upholding our community, even though we do have many wealthy community members.


I just moved from OOT to Monsey a few weeks ago so I know what you mean.


Last edited by southernbubby on Fri, Feb 22 2019, 7:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Feb 22 2019, 6:07 am
southernbubby wrote:
Over a century ago, many frum Jews who came to America, were told to either work on Shabbos or lose their jobs. I guess that scamming either wasn't an option or it was viewed that working on Shabbos was a lesser aveira than stealing.
If you look today, their descendants are not frum while the children of fraudsters are. That may be one reason why we treat fraudsters as victims of anti-Semitism instead of crooks.
To me, the simple answer would be to live simply but it is the luxury businesses whose money holds up the community so rabbonim are often hesitant to promote too much simplicity.


SB, I don't agree with this at all. My great-grandparents came to America in the early 1900s (both sides), they were scrupulously honest, they didn't scam anybody and they stayed Shomer Shabbos. They were poor.

And... I don't know where you live that the Rabbanim are not promoting simplicity but where I live the Rabbanim talk about almost nothing else. There is article after article, speech after speech, about the perils of too much gashmiyus and especially about the problem of conspicuous consumption. This time of year, there is sure to be many articles about how terrible pesach hotels are...

Your problem is that you are reading the wrong publications. I'll forward you some of the articles that I've been reading....
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amother
Navy


 

Post Fri, Feb 22 2019, 6:12 am
mommyg8- glad to hear but bemoaning conspicuous consumption is different then stressing honesty. You can get in trouble for lying on your tax returns or borrow money without paying back and not live a fancy life...
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Feb 22 2019, 6:29 am
amother wrote:
mommyg8- glad to hear but bemoaning conspicuous consumption is different then stressing honesty. You can get in trouble for lying on your tax returns or borrow money without paying back and not live a fancy life...


It's defiinitely the first step. To be perfectly honest, I have zero judgment for someone who doesn't report ten dollars so as to be eligible for food stamps, it totally doesn't bother me at all. But I think we all get annoyed when people lie and steal in order to live a luxurious lifestyle. And I don't mean fancy paper plates, either.

Also, each additional person who lives the wealthy lifestyle raises the bar for everyone else. Even something as innocuous as cleaning help - if lots of people in your neighborhood get 15 hours a week of cleaning help - it becomes a need for everyone else on the block as well.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Feb 22 2019, 6:40 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
SB, I don't agree with this at all. My great-grandparents came to America in the early 1900s (both sides), they were scrupulously honest, they didn't scam anybody and they stayed Shomer Shabbos. They were poor.

And... I don't know where you live that the Rabbanim are not promoting simplicity but where I live the Rabbanim talk about almost nothing else. There is article after article, speech after speech, about the perils of too much gashmiyus and especially about the problem of conspicuous consumption. This time of year, there is sure to be many articles about how terrible pesach hotels are...

Your problem is that you are reading the wrong publications. I'll forward you some of the articles that I've been reading....


We do know that historically, Jews came to America to escape persecution but it became the undoing of frumkeit for many and often it was because of poverty. We know that many of the women that were killed in the Triangle Shirtwaist fire on that Shabbos a century ago were Jewish women who felt forced to work on Shabbos.
As to the publications, check out the ads. They will convince you that Purim should cost thousands of dollars, not counting what is given that day in tzedukah.
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amother
Emerald


 

Post Fri, Feb 22 2019, 6:59 am
watergirl wrote:
I agree, sign up for dailygiving.org. I am so amazed with what they are doing. At least check it out. You will be inspired. People are generally good.

https://dailygiving.org/


Thank you for some practical advice. I'll check it out.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Feb 22 2019, 7:38 am
I think that although most frum Jews are good and trustworthy, just as we know that there's child molestation, people who hide medical and emotional conditions in shidduchim, and those who play fast and loose with other people's money, all of them are picky about the hechsherim that they accept. They simply disconnect emotionally from the aveira that they are doing.
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Cheiny




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Feb 22 2019, 9:48 am
amother wrote:
of course non Jews have scammers, so what. We are supposed to be an ohr lagoyim. People mistakenly trust people because they are frum.


And Jews have a yetzer hara. That’s the way of our lives. Those scammers obviously struggle with the yetzer hara in the area of money, and while we all might be high and mighty about how wrong that is, the truth is none of us can say we’d withstand the test if that was our area of struggle either, or that we pass every test in the areas that are difficult for us. The point is not generalize and paint all, or most frum people with the same accusatory brush.
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Cheiny




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Feb 22 2019, 9:50 am
[quote="grace413"]People who are scamming others are not frum.

So in your eyes, does that hold true for every aveira someone commits? Or just for thievery?
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ectomorph




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Feb 22 2019, 9:51 am
My family has a minhag that unless there are 2 witnesses and a document with a guarantor, we don't lend money. (a nes happened for us and we were told to adopt this because Hashem won't do open miracles again.)
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Feb 22 2019, 11:01 am
[quote="Cheiny"]
grace413 wrote:
People who are scamming others are not frum.

So in your eyes, does that hold true for every aveira someone commits? Or just for thievery?


There are sins between Jews and Hashem and sins that cause harm to other Jews. I am not sure that I am qualified to rate sins but shnooks ruin the whole community.
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