Divorce good/bad for the kids

amother

Magenta

Mon, Feb 25 2019, 6:02 pm

The question is what chance these kids had in the first place.

According to researchers, there are ten-twelve ACEs, adverse childhood experiences, that contribute to risk of negative outcomes such as poor school performance, delinquency, etc. Divorce is only one of those ACEs. Others include abuse (physical, emotional, or s-xual), neglect, watching the mother experiencing violence, alcoholism/substance addiction, an incarcerated family member, and mental illness in the home.

If most divorces, especially in frum circles, are outcomes of these ACEs, there is no way to escape an ACE or two (which unfortunately tend to come in clusters) that's been bashert for these kinderlech.

The goal must be to bolster their resilience with protective factors that lead to positive outcomes. Those include healthy attachment (with a mother who has something left to give, before her marriage completely destroys her sanity), building positive relationships with others in the family and community, etc. Those who shun or mistreat these children who need positive interactions so desperately are directly contributing to the terrible outcome they predict for these neshamos.

I wish life were black and white, but reality is not so simple.

amother

Ecru

Mon, Feb 25 2019, 6:07 pm

amother wrote:

This thread took a strange turn. Let me clarify what I posted.

I am chassidish and divorced with kids. I don't think there's any point in asking kids what they want because I believe most young kids would prefer their parents stay together, unless the situation is so unbearable that they are being hurt by the abuse or watching their mother suffer. Then they will let you know one way or another that they hate their home life, so no need to ask.

In many cases, parents hide the worst of it from their kids, so kids don't have the full picture. Kids also may not care if their mother isn't very happy in her marriage because they expect mothers to to put personal happiness aside for their kids' sake. Watching their mother be treated by a shmatta also reinforces this lesson.

They are not wise enough to see the long-term consequences of watching a bad marriage. Often the damage is being done slowly and subconsciously. They tell themselves they'll have a better life, but they don't know that bederech hateva they are likely to end up repeating this pattern.

My response was to answer OP, whether asking her kids will give her new information. I don't think it will. That doesn't mean it's wrong to divorce if your kids don't like the idea.

I'm a person who's in a so-so marriage. The positives definitely outweigh the negatives so theres no question about us staying together. But as far as internalizing negative views of marriage, poor role modeling etc, this is definitely something I worry about especially since my boys are now shidduch age. (My husband's issue is his lack of responsibility rather than abuse.) OTOH I can't think of anything in my or my kids lives that would improve as a result of us being separate.

For many people divorce is a question between a bad situation and a worse situation. I know a few people who are happily remarried but for the majority life was no picnic after divorce.

amother

Magenta

Mon, Feb 25 2019, 6:14 pm

amother wrote:

For some people it is just bashert to suffer. People treat divorcees as selfish people who made a choice on their kids' cheshbon, when really there often is no real choice. Either option comes with tremendous pain and a mother of kids usually takes the path she believes will lead to a better life for her children. No one finds a garden of roses as a single mother - or if they do, it's mostly thorns.

The way I experienced it was that divorce brought tremendous relief from pain but brought much hardship.

Cheiny

Mon, Feb 25 2019, 7:08 pm

amother wrote:

So... I’m one of those people staying in an awful marriage “for the kids.”

I know some people say that’s even worse for the kids which is something I’ve considered.

Not that they even necessarily know what’s best for them but I wish I knew what they wanted/thought. My older kids are teenagers and I really can’t (and don’t plan on) asking them what they’d want, does anyone have any ideas how I can get this information without asking them?!!?

Your criteria shouldn’t be what they “want,” it should be what’s best for both you and them. Remember that children often repeat the behaviors they see at home when they get married. It’s terrible for them to see parents who are constantly at each other’s throats, or there’s abuse or other serious problems. Just ask yourself if you’d want your marriage for your children....

Cheiny

Mon, Feb 25 2019, 7:14 pm

[quote="amother"]Its better to stay together when you have children. There is a ton of research on this topic, following children from single parent homes for decades. And what they found out about children from single parent homes is NOT GOOD. I dont care if you think youre an exception, children overall do poorly in EVERY AREA when they are raised in single parent homes, particularly when they are not living with their father.
Children being raised by a single mom are more likely to suffer socially and academically. Heck, most criminals and people in prison come from single mother homesquote]

But you’re omitting that that means they do not have a father in their lives (most likely the parents were never married to begin with). That’s quite different than coming from a divorced home, where the kids have access to both parents. And your “research” doesn’t compare your results with those of kids who grow up with parents who constantly fight or there’s abuse which they’re witness to as they grow up. You’re presenting not even half a picture, and I’m therefore questioning your research altogether. It’s inaccurate by far and only presents one group of people.

Cheiny

Mon, Feb 25 2019, 7:15 pm

thunderstorm wrote:

I happen to live in Monsey but I'm not from Monsey. However my DH was living in Monsey, a Chasid himself and he married me with no qualms. His parents have been happily married for 50 years. He never thought of me as damaged goods.

Exactly, and those who claim that coming from a divorced home means having problems getting a good shidduch has zero emunah and negates the concept that each person has a zivug.

amother

Mint

Mon, Feb 25 2019, 7:18 pm

Ok, this is my story:

I started off with a pretty good marriage. Then certain things happened - addiction and mental illness on my dh's part - that caused our marriage to go completely downhill. There were years that I questioned if I could stay sane being marked. We sometimes had full out and out fights in front of the kids. Mean and nasty comments were said by both sides. I asked Rabbanim that I trust and they told me that it is better for the kids if the parents stay together. Even if the parents are fighting.

I have to admit I had many of the inner qualms that many have you have mentioned - how will my boys know how to be good husbands if they've never seen it modeled? I was terrified.

Bh I have two children married. Two sons. They are both extremely happily married and I get calls from my DIL and random people, what good husbands they are and how happy the couples look.

So don't be discouraged. I don't know how this happened, but it did. I'm glad I listened to my Rav.

Oh, and the best part? My marriage is b'h good again. I really feel happy once again in my marriage. So ... you never know. Anything can happen... and sometimes does.

amother

Ruby

Mon, Feb 25 2019, 8:30 pm

STBX comes from a home where father is emotionaly abusive. He and his siblings suffered terribly, yet they would not have wanted their mother to divorce because they feared the shame associated. He and his siblings always wished his father to somehow get killed..

STBX is a copy of his father. I clearly remember him saying in the beginning that he's scared he'll be like his father. Well, he IS exactly like his father..

amother

Magenta

Mon, Feb 25 2019, 10:23 pm

amother wrote:

I feel like you're asking-is it better to burn yourself from a candle or from the gas range?
My parents divorced. They did that when I was an older teenager already. I can't say it was better before or after. It's like jumping from the fire to the frying pan

I like your analogy...

For me, getting out of the marriage that was driving me to suicidal depression was a lifesaving decision. My kids were destined to suffer either way. May as well have a sane mother to hold their hands and sing them to sleep.

ellacoe

Mon, Feb 25 2019, 10:38 pm

There is no one size fits all answer to the question of staying together for the kids. Every situation is different and every person is different. Some women don't have the wear with all to be single parents, some women live in societies in which it is just to difficult to be divorced. (Not just in frum circles) Some men make it too difficult to leave. etc. etc. There are many different factors that go into the decision and everyone's are different. It is a personal decision that has to be carefully considered and what is good for one person can be awful for someone else.

Ravenclaw

Mon, Feb 25 2019, 10:47 pm

amother wrote:

Great post. Really well said.

amother

Plum

Tue, Feb 26 2019, 2:27 am

Sometimes it is better to have 2 parents that are not living under the same roof but ok parents to their children than to have to parents living under the same roof and fighting in front of their children every day.

My husband and siblings are scarred for life from their parent's marriage (and abuse that went on). His mother should have divorced his father years ago, but she didnt. And each child has their own issues. One child didnt even get married until he was close to 50 (too scared to repeat the same as his parents), one married a guy just like her father and lets just say, we never visit that toxic household, and my husband? Well, he has permanant depression and complex ptsd from all of it.

No matter what you or anyone else ends up doing, dont kid yourself that children are not affected, because they are, they are majorly affected by these things.

I literally never understand the phrase "staying for the children" because in essense you are actually hurting the children, many times, even worse than if you would divorce.

amother

Natural

Tue, Feb 26 2019, 4:12 am

My parents divorced and it was the best thing for all of us children. My mother sacrificed financial security for the emotional health of her children and herself.
She knows 100% that she did the right thing and all of her children will say the same thing.

This may be anecdotal, but I personally do not know anyone who was happy their parents stayed together in a bad marriage. I have many friends whose parents are divorced and many friends whose parents should have divorced or divorced too late, and the children have all said to me that they are better off with divorced parents or that they're upset their parents didn't divorce.
No child wants to be living in a house where there is arguing or dysfunction.

amother

Babypink

Tue, Feb 26 2019, 6:25 am

all I can say is that I have the same question
my dh is not mentally healthy right now
but I think the kids would be much worse off if we divorced
they have stability - and I never fight in front of them
I am just trying to learn how to cope

and it's depressing thinking that I might get divorced after they are all older. I hope hashem will send me a yeshuah before then and we can have a good marriage again.

amother

Burgundy

Tue, Feb 26 2019, 8:05 am

thunderstorm wrote:

I know what I get. I grew up with a Chasidish father. My brothers went to Chasidish chadarim. Yes. We are not first class citizens. And so? But we survive and thrive and I would never tell one no to to divorce because of stigma. I would tell someone not to divorce if it would keep the family unit intact and happier than if they were divorced.

I don't think it's fair to say that since you survived and thrived from a divorced home, it's the appropriate mehaleich for everyone. It probably is very painful to feek like a 100th class citizen, and have very few shiddichim prospects. It's a hard choice but I don't think you can make a blanket statement from your one single personal case.