Home
Log in / Sign Up
    Private Messages   Advanced Search   Rules   New User Guide   FAQ   Advertise   Contact Us  
Forum -> Interesting Discussions
Hashem is so kind
Previous  1  2  3  4  Next



Post new topic   Reply to topic View latest: 24h 48h 72h

yksraya




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 28 2019, 7:58 am
amother wrote:
I guess I struggle with the seemingly indisputable fact that literally nothing you wrote is provable or even slightly demonstrable. My brain works in a way that I accept things that I can prove to be true. The reality is that every religion says the exact same thing about whoever it is they believe in. We say they are all believing in nonsense and they say the same about us. This leaves me in a situation where I always consider that it might be true, but maybe not. Therefore it's hard for me to put my entire heart and soul into it when I feel like nobody really knows if it's true.

I can only speak for myself and my experiences. I've had numerous challenging nisyanos throughout my life. Things seemed bderech hateiva very bleak and like the worst will happen. But I had strong faith, and miracles happened many miracles which are unexplained and doesn't make sense other that it's pure hashgacha pratis.

Was that nisayon unbearable and too much? Oh yes, it was something no one should know of, but can I say hashem is kind? Yes, more than just kind. I felt like hashem is holding me throughout it all.

I guess when you experience something so drastic and scary, and then just like that hashem sends you tons of miracles and you see the light at the end of the tunnel, you kind of have no doubt abt hashem and his kindness.
Back to top

ShishKabob




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 28 2019, 8:11 am
I believe that even in diseases there is kindness. I don't understand it, because I can't see the complete picture, since I'm still down in this world bh. However, when we get to the next world we will be able to understand that all diseases, hardships, disabilities, otd's, everything is kindness from Hashem.
Just because I don't understand how chemo works, do I say it's an unkind thing? It makes you nauseous and it makes your hair fall out. However, it works in a different way that is kindness in the end because it helps you recover.
So, I don't understand why there has to be illness or death or other hardships, however, I do believe that it is kindness in it's purest form directly from Hashem.
I may kick and scream and be upset and mad and I don't like that it's happening however, I still believe in Hashem's kindness.
To me it's not a contradiction.
Back to top

Rappel




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 28 2019, 8:15 am
If you want an intellectual answer to your question, then I highly recommend The Choice to Be, by Rabbi Jeremy Kagan.

And if you do decide to read the book, then please let me know. I'd love to discuss it with you!
Back to top

ectomorph




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 28 2019, 8:18 am
The purpose of life is to serve Hashem, not to get as much enjoyment as possible. If you served Hashem it doesn't matter if you were sick or healthy, married or not married, kids or no kids. You were a success if you served Hashem.
Back to top

amother
Cyan


 

Post Thu, Feb 28 2019, 8:57 am
ShishKabob wrote:
I believe that even in diseases there is kindness. I don't understand it, because I can't see the complete picture, since I'm still down in this world bh. However, when we get to the next world we will be able to understand that all diseases, hardships, disabilities, otd's, everything is kindness from Hashem.
Just because I don't understand how chemo works, do I say it's an unkind thing? It makes you nauseous and it makes your hair fall out. However, it works in a different way that is kindness in the end because it helps you recover.
So, I don't understand why there has to be illness or death or other hardships, however, I do believe that it is kindness in it's purest form directly from Hashem.
I may kick and scream and be upset and mad and I don't like that it's happening however, I still believe in Hashem's kindness.
To me it's not a contradiction.



I have several issues with your post.
You say "in disease there's kindness". I suppose there is some good that comes out of disease, with all kinds of chessed being done, but ultimately if you weigh the good that disease offers and the bad disease offers.....it's not exactly close - disease is bad. Would you wish disease on anyone? Why not? You say there's kindness in disease. It's like punching someone in the face and then offering them a band-aid. Not really a good deal.

I don't think you can compare chemo to hashems kindness. There are real statistics regarding the benefits of chemo that a cancer patient understands. With hashem, it's blind faith. We are told to believe that even suffering is good for reasons that we never know. We sometimes find a silver lining during the suffering and hold that as a sign that hashem is with us, but often we don't. So you say that suffering such as illness, disease, and death are really kind acts from hashem, but I don't think you can substantiate this claim with literally anything. I think I'm more of a black and white type person and so I struggle with blind faith.
Back to top

amother
Cyan


 

Post Thu, Feb 28 2019, 9:02 am
Rappel wrote:
If you want an intellectual answer to your question, then I highly recommend The Choice to Be, by Rabbi Jeremy Kagan.

And if you do decide to read the book, then please let me know. I'd love to discuss it with you!




Thank you for this. I'm going to order this book!
Back to top

ShishKabob




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 28 2019, 9:03 am
amother wrote:
I have several issues with your post.
You say "in disease there's kindness". I suppose there is some good that comes out of disease, with all kinds of chessed being done, but ultimately if you weigh the good that disease offers and the bad disease offers.....it's not exactly close - disease is bad. Would you wish disease on anyone? Why not? You say there's kindness in disease. It's like punching someone in the face and then offering them a band-aid. Not really a good deal.

I don't think you can compare chemo to hashems kindness. There are real statistics regarding the benefits of chemo that a cancer patient understands. With hashem, it's blind faith. We are told to believe that even suffering is good for reasons that we never know. We sometimes find a silver lining during the suffering and hold that as a sign that hashem is with us, but often we don't. So you say that suffering such as illness, disease, and death are really kind acts from hashem, but I don't think you can substantiate this claim with literally anything. I think I'm more of a black and white type person and so I struggle with blind faith.

I wasn't referring to the chessed being done with regard to disease. However, that's a different angle to look at it and it's not a bad deduction either.
I know that every single thing Hashem does is for the good. I know that every single thing that Hashem does is kind. That is why I believe that disease is part of a manifestation of his kindness. Do I understand it? no! Do I wish it upon anyone? no! We ask every day that we should not be tested with a nisayon. Disease is a nisayon.
I guess if it works for you, you can put me into the category of blind faith in this area.
I hope that you can gain clarity with a different perspective that I can't necessary communicate to you!
Back to top

yksraya




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 28 2019, 9:54 am
ShishKabob wrote:
I wasn't referring to the chessed being done with regard to disease. However, that's a different angle to look at it and it's not a bad deduction either.
I know that every single thing Hashem does is for the good. I know that every single thing that Hashem does is kind. That is why I believe that disease is part of a manifestation of his kindness. Do I understand it? no! Do I wish it upon anyone? no! We ask every day that we should not be tested with a nisayon. Disease is a nisayon.
I guess if it works for you, you can put me into the category of blind faith in this area.
I hope that you can gain clarity with a different perspective that I can't necessary communicate to you!

Hashem in his kindness, sends us nisyanos (disease or other stuff) for reasons we can't understand. But it's for our own sake that the nisayons happen. Gilgul related stuff, or because he is testing us to see if we are worthy of major blessings he wants to send us. Also, he wants us to connect deeply, and without nisayon it's not the same kind of connection. I would however not word it the way you did, that disease is a good thing etc. It would be like saying abuse is good, or the war was good or wtvr.

One day we will see clarity and understand why it all had to happen. All the why's will start making sense.

We say in shir hamalos before bentching "oz yemulai schok pina" we will laugh with a full mouth. We will laugh at ourselves for even complaining and crying. But in the meantime, nisyanos are something we can't fathom.

Connection tho, and seeking hashem, that's something that if we do, we find him more and more in our day to day life. We just need to keep our eyes open.
Back to top

ShishKabob




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 28 2019, 10:12 am
yksraya, thank you for articulating it so well.
Back to top

amother
Silver


 

Post Thu, Feb 28 2019, 11:14 am
amother wrote:
I have several issues with your post.
You say "in disease there's kindness". I suppose there is some good that comes out of disease, with all kinds of chessed being done, but ultimately if you weigh the good that disease offers and the bad disease offers.....it's not exactly close - disease is bad. Would you wish disease on anyone? Why not? You say there's kindness in disease. It's like punching someone in the face and then offering them a band-aid. Not really a good deal.

I don't think you can compare chemo to hashems kindness. There are real statistics regarding the benefits of chemo that a cancer patient understands. With hashem, it's blind faith. We are told to believe that even suffering is good for reasons that we never know. We sometimes find a silver lining during the suffering and hold that as a sign that hashem is with us, but often we don't. So you say that suffering such as illness, disease, and death are really kind acts from hashem, but I don't think you can substantiate this claim with literally anything. I think I'm more of a black and white type person and so I struggle with blind faith.


You are right. Judaism claims to be logically provable. One of its tenets is that G-d is good and incapable of doing anything that isn't perfectly good. That claim is based on logic, and your question is therefore justified. I think Derech Hashem may be the right source for the answer but I could be wrong. Please explore in our sources - it's all been addressed I assure you.
And Judaism doesn't do blind faith. Rather, we come to a place where it makes total sense that we don't understand. We're not Gd so we won't understand why, but we can understand that it must be good- through logically proving that Gd by definition can only do good.
Back to top

heidi




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 28 2019, 11:42 am
amother wrote:
You are right. Judaism claims to be logically provable. One of its tenets is that G-d is good and incapable of doing anything that isn't perfectly good. That claim is based on logic, and your question is therefore justified. I think Derech Hashem may be the right source for the answer but I could be wrong. Please explore in our sources - it's all been addressed I assure you.
And Judaism doesn't do blind faith. Rather, we come to a place where it makes total sense that we don't understand. We're not Gd so we won't understand why, but we can understand that it must be good- through logically proving that Gd by definition can only do good.

I disagree. I think Judaism needs a leap of faith at some point. As I've grown older and hopefully wiser I see many things that are just bad. Not good in the long run, bad. Children born with deformities and terrible unspeakable syndromes. Crib deaths. Even if a parent lives to be 100 he will never see the good that came out of his child's death or suffering.
At some point I realized that believing Jews have to swallow the kool aid and go from there. You have to take a leap and start from a premise that G-d is good and all loving. And then try to get through it all . . .
Back to top

imorethanamother




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 28 2019, 12:43 pm
amother wrote:
I guess I struggle with the seemingly indisputable fact that literally nothing you wrote is provable or even slightly demonstrable. My brain works in a way that I accept things that I can prove to be true. The reality is that every religion says the exact same thing about whoever it is they believe in. We say they are all believing in nonsense and they say the same about us. This leaves me in a situation where I always consider that it might be true, but maybe not. Therefore it's hard for me to put my entire heart and soul into it when I feel like nobody really knows if it's true.


Scientifically, it's hard to prove the existence of something that is, essentially, outside the realm of science. You can understand that God exists by the statistical improbability of the physics of the universe. But God Himself is outside space and time, He created space and time. Rabbi David Fohrman is quite good about explaining this in easy to watch videos:

Here:
https://www.alephbeta.org/play.....ience

And here:
https://www.alephbeta.org/play.....lives

Still, even among scientists, faith is still unprovable. Einstein admits, as do some physicists, that:

However, we must concede that our actual knowledge of these forces is imperfect, so that in the end the belief in the existence of a final, ultimate spirit rests on a kind of faith. Such belief remains widespread even with the current achievements in science.

But also, everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that some spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe, one that is vastly superior to that of man. In this way the pursuit of science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort, which is surely quite different from the religiosity of someone more naive.


Einstein didn't believe in a God that cared about human lives, which is what he means by the aforementioned naivete.

Ultimately, faith is a personal thing. I'm not sure there's any obligation to view God as "kind", and I definitely read some sages and it appears their view of God is very different. Not this kindly dad, per se, but this incredible being of immense power that is unfathomable. Sometimes I do think that our generation is somewhat childish in our perception of God, but I once had someone tell me that God is "kamayim hapanim el panim" - God reflects to us what we put to Him. So what do I know?

Good luck in your quest for knowledge.
Back to top

PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 28 2019, 5:33 pm
amother wrote:
[u]


I wouldn't say hashem is not kind. I would say that sometimes hashem is kind and seemingly, sometimes he isn't. Am I supposed to logically look at all the tragedy in the world and close my eyes and say hashem is so kind? You mention emuna. So is emuna something that is logical and makes sense or do we pretend? For example should a single 50 year old woman go to sleep happy at night understanding that hashem loves her and it is best for her that she be alone her whole life? Is there any way for this to make sense to us?


I would extend hugs to the 50 year old woman, and my sincere wishes that she has the strength to put one foot in front of the other, ultimately, with a skip vs. a shlep to her steps, and that she (continue to) use her tremendous kochos to make this world a better place. And that she find some measure of satisfaction and pleasure in those efforts.
Back to top

PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 28 2019, 5:38 pm
amother wrote:
But how do you actually know hashem is kind? How do you make it a foundational belief if it seemingly contradicts what our human minds tell us. When babies are born with diseases how do I honestly say that I believe hashem is kind? This is why I wonder if it's meant to be kind of a brainwash where we just ingrain it in our minds from a very young age so that we don't realize the obvious questions.


https://www.amazon.com/Perfect.....58320

The author is an odom gadol who has walked the walk.
Back to top

PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 28 2019, 5:49 pm
ectomorph wrote:
The purpose of life is to serve Hashem, not to get as much enjoyment as possible. If you served Hashem it doesn't matter if you were sick or healthy, married or not married, kids or no kids. You were a success if you served Hashem.


You have to define enjoyment.
If you can let yourself enjoy every moment of purposeful living, you will have incredible pleasure in life.
Back to top

PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 28 2019, 5:51 pm
amother wrote:
You are right. Judaism claims to be logically provable. One of its tenets is that G-d is good and incapable of doing anything that isn't perfectly good. That claim is based on logic, and your question is therefore justified. I think Derech Hashem may be the right source for the answer but I could be wrong. Please explore in our sources - it's all been addressed I assure you.
And Judaism doesn't do blind faith. Rather, we come to a place where it makes total sense that we don't understand. We're not Gd so we won't understand why, but we can understand that it must be good- through logically proving that Gd by definition can only do good.


I have heard this said by people I respect, and most recently, several Ohr Samayach rabbis, including Dr. Tatz: We don't prove Hashem's existence. But with careful examination, we make an incredibly reasonable choice to believe.
Back to top

PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 28 2019, 5:53 pm
imorethanamother wrote:

Ultimately, faith is a personal thing. I'm not sure there's any obligation to view God as "kind", and I definitely read some sages and it appears their view of God is very different. Not this kindly dad, per se, but this incredible being of immense power that is unfathomable. Sometimes I do think that our generation is somewhat childish in our perception of God, but I once had someone tell me that God is "kamayim hapanim el panim" - God reflects to us what we put to Him. So what do I know?

Good luck in your quest for knowledge.


Hashem operates with the 13 middos harachamim.
Back to top

champagne




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 28 2019, 6:06 pm
OP, I totally understand you. And agree with you. I have an extremely hard time making sense of the Jewish tenet that Hashem is kind with the terrible things He does. I understand that on some level there is kindness but at the end of the day, suffering is suffering. Never about my own life—for that I feel incredibly blessed, even though I’ve been dealt a hand. It pales in comparison to all the good in my life. But for others’ suffering—that I can’t justify, can’t brush away with a wave of my hand.

I once stumbled on my absolute favorite essay of all time by a frum physicist Alexander Poltorak on Chabad.org. https://www.chabad.org/library.....4.htm

Whenever I’m especially sad I read it again. I find it very comforting to me. It’s a panel response to the question “Does Everything Have to Make Sense?” Hope you appreciate it as much as I did. It doesn’t answer my questions per se, just comforts me.

I appreciate your honesty and desire to understand tremendously. We need more people like you in the world who don’t just shove their uncertainties under the rug for complacency. I’m not saying that everyone is a pretender and that there aren’t people on the level of complete acceptance, but I’m certainly not there yet and I am happy we can have an open conversation about it.
Back to top

Cheiny




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 28 2019, 6:09 pm
amother wrote:
I often read that here. Is this idea something that is logical and makes sense, or is it something that we must say even though it doesn't really make sense?


How does it not make sense? If He never did anything more for you than give you life, you’d owe him endless gratitude...and once you start looking at just how much He does for you in addition to giving you life, and start seeing how much you have, the gratitude owed Him for all His kindness would not be in doubt for a moment,,,
Back to top

Cheiny




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 28 2019, 6:11 pm
amother wrote:
I don't understand. So if we consider all the kind wonderful things you just mentioned, and also consider all the terrible suffering that goes on, how do we end up that hashem is so kind???
Do we just pretend the bad stuff doesn't exist?


No, that’s where emunah comes in, and we trust that while it may not feel good, it IS good, even though we don’t understand, and one day we will be able to see and understand how everything that happened was for our ultimate best.
Back to top
Page 2 of 4 Previous  1  2  3  4  Next Recent Topics




Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Interesting Discussions

Related Topics Replies Last Post
Baby girl names with Hashem's name in it
by amother
13 Today at 6:44 pm View last post
What kind of patient emergencies do therapists have?
by amother
32 Today at 7:59 am View last post
What kind of weekday shorts do boys wear in the summer?
by amother
3 Wed, Mar 20 2024, 9:30 am View last post
What kind of shoes for the summer, 2 yo boy
by amother
6 Wed, Mar 20 2024, 8:00 am View last post
Chasde Hashem
by amother
19 Tue, Mar 19 2024, 6:41 am View last post