Hashem is so kind | Imamother

Cheiny

Thu, Feb 28 2019, 9:12 pm

amother wrote:

[u]

I wouldn't say hashem is not kind. I would say that sometimes hashem is kind and seemingly, sometimes he isn't. Am I supposed to logically look at all the tragedy in the world and close my eyes and say hashem is so kind? You mention emuna. So is emuna something that is logical and makes sense or do we pretend? For example should a single 50 year old woman go to sleep happy at night understanding that hashem loves her and it is best for her that she be alone her whole life? Is there any way for this to make sense to us?

Emunah means just that, having faith even though we don’t understand and can’t see the big picture. Otherwise, if you’re looking to understand, how do you explain being religious and worshiping a G-d you can’t see?

Cheiny

Thu, Feb 28 2019, 9:16 pm

[quote="amother"]What exactly do you have strong faith in?

1. Hashem will resolve the problem. For example a couple is struggling with infertility. They have emunah that hashem will bless them with a child.

2. Even if hashem doesn't give them any children, this is certainly best for them.[/quote

I suggest you get yourself some good books on emunah, and perhaps speak to a rabbi to help strengthen you and give you Chizuk.

Cheiny

Thu, Feb 28 2019, 9:17 pm

amother wrote:

I hear you. I guess my issue is that #2 is not a logical or sensible conclusion. It is not based on anything that we can honestly say we can understand. It is just an idea that we train ourselves to accept even though we have no way to verify it.

Same with our entire religion and the Torah...it’s built on faith alone...

amother

Cerise

Thu, Feb 28 2019, 9:54 pm

Just to share what has helped me with this struggle.
After hitting rock bottom and close to suicide it was ideas from non-Jewish sources that saved me. And I realized that those ideas are actually Emuna said in different ways, packaged differently and with more step by step directions.
For example in the midst of my blackness I learned to see the beauty of a rose/ appreciate the smell of a baby/ touch of soft skin.
( All the while ignoring all the suicidal black thoughts about life and its lack of purpose. )
Just sitting in the moment. Feeling the caress of the suns rays/ touch of cool breeze. Found the beauty in that.
To me thats what Emuna is. Thats seeing the kindness of Hashem.
Bigger picture- I dont have a clue how any of this makes sense. Life seems to stink at best. But theres joy and beauty around. And goodness. As Mr. Rogers said, his mother responded to scary news by telling him, 'Look for the helpers.' Look for the people acting with kindness and angelic goodness. Not the ones grabbing the ones giving. I just have to open my eye to see it and not allow the voice of cynicism and negativity to win. I could see the blackness theres plenty. vemunascha baleilos.... it is dark!
Later I was listening to a Holocaust survivor talk about his escape and he described the grandeur of the mountains as the weak men struggled away....
I wondered how he could notice the scenery and I realized that thats emuna. Thats seeing good and beauty in the midst of hell. Thats true Faith.

( theres other intellectual answers. But they never reached my heart despite intellectually appreciating them as truth. It was actually learning to sit with moments of joy that opened my eyes to Faith. And I still struggle..so reminding myself here. )

oneofakind

Thu, Feb 28 2019, 10:17 pm

Losing a baby was one of the hardest things I struggled with. Once I have the benefit of time to heal, I intellectually know that he was a neshama that had to come to this world for a short time and suffer perhaps to repair something in a previous gilgul. I look that way at other tragedies as well. We are opening the book at a random middle chapter and have no idea what happened before and don't know what will happen after.

amother

Sapphire

Thu, Feb 28 2019, 10:44 pm

I want to preempt my comment by saying I'm not especially intellectual, and I cannot speak as eloquently as some of the previous posters.

I don't remember the exact details, so please don't pick apart my mistakes. I do believe that I have the general idea correct. My dh recently told me a dvar torah and I will try to write out what I can. What he said really resonated with me and has been really helpful for my current situation.

I believe it was about Iyov and all his suffering. The malachim kept asking Hashem -"Why does Iyov have so many tzaros? He is such a big tzaddik." At a certain point Hashem replies - "Stop asking, or I will have to destroy the whole world." The question is, doesn't that seem like an overreaction to such a question? The malachim felt bad for Iyov and really wanted to understand. So it is explained like this - Hashem was not angry with the malachim. Hashem was actually just explaining to them why they need to stop asking. The only way the malachim could truly understand Hashem's reasons would be if Hashem literally took apart the whole world from the beginning of time and showed them the entire plan from beginning to end.

I hope this is as helpful to somebody else as it was to me.

amother

Silver

Fri, Mar 01 2019, 3:29 am

heidi wrote:

I disagree. I think Judaism needs a leap of faith at some point. As I've grown older and hopefully wiser I see many things that are just bad. Not good in the long run, bad. Children born with deformities and terrible unspeakable syndromes. Crib deaths. Even if a parent lives to be 100 he will never see the good that came out of his child's death or suffering.
At some point I realized that believing Jews have to swallow the kool aid and go from there. You have to take a leap and start from a premise that G-d is good and all loving. And then try to get through it all . . .

I didn't say we'll see the good. I said based on a logical conclusion (that exists ) that Hashem can only do good, I know it must be good. Me Not seeing the good is because my uunderstanding is limited - not His. In other words, if I have to accept that either my perception is limited, or G-d's goodness is limited, the former makes much more sense.

Much like a child doesn't understand why his parents would put him through a painful surgery. In his tiny brain he thinks his parents are cruel. He doesn't know they're saving his life. The reason for his perception is his limited understanding. The gap between our understanding and G-d's is infinitely greater than between a toddler and his parents.

As I said, it makes perfect sense that I don't understand. No leap of faith- it's based on logic.

amother

Silver

Fri, Mar 01 2019, 3:34 am

PinkFridge wrote:

I have heard this said by people I respect, and most recently, several Ohr Samayach rabbis, including Dr. Tatz: We don't prove Hashem's existence. But with ocareful examination, we make an incredibly reasonable choice to believe.

You are right. When I used the word proof I should've included the words beyond a reasonable doubt or similar. Nothing in life is 100% provable. When we use the word proof we mean to a certain standard of proof, in any discipline. Judaism is no worse. We choose based on the evidence which shows Hashems existence and Sinai happened beyond a reasonable doubt.

Rabbi Dovid Gottlieb explains this best.

My point was that Judaism is based on logic, not a leap of faith. Is the logic 100%? No, but neither is anything else in life.

amother

Azure

Fri, Mar 01 2019, 8:11 am

amother wrote:

The bolded is beyond painful to live with. It feels more dead than alive, It's probably impossible to understand just how terrible one feels when dealing with this.

As one who's been through a lot, the only way I'm able to handle it is by thinking that our schar does not depend on what we aquire, it only depends how we reacted each moment. Did we become angry rotten anxious beings or did I react by just doing the best I can at each moment and did what HaShem would have been proud of in each moment.

If someone in such a dire situation is still a giving nice person, well, she may seem doomed in this temporary world but in the next world she will be crowned with all the unfathomable glory and kavod. Likely way more then her successful acquaintance who had it all in this world.

amother

Cyan

Fri, Mar 01 2019, 8:59 am

amother wrote:

Many people think and rationalize evil in this world in exactly the way you described above. Sure horrible things happen down here, but the good news is that this only serves to preserve and enhance our future reward in the next world. As that excellent article on the previous page pointed out, this logic serves as a means to make sense out of things. It is very comforting and reassuring to internalize this way of thinking and fully believe it. The problem I have with it is that it is an attempt for us mere mortals to try to explain how god works. At this point I say stop. We have no clue. As the article on the previous page pointed out, when ren Yishmael was having his face skinned by the Romans, the malachim protested to hashem asking, is this the reward for torah? Even they did NOT understand that this will just give reb Yishmael more zchar in the next world.

amother

Blush

Fri, Mar 01 2019, 9:41 am

Telling yourself Hashem is kind and that everything is for the best is a coping mechanism people use to make themselves feel good about a problem they’re experiencing. Believing Hashem is evil or that there is no reason for someone’s suffering is a concept people cannot stomach. We don’t in fact know if Hashem is kind or not or why some people suffer terribly and some don’t. There is no concrete explanation for any of it that we can identify. A person can believe whatever works for them, but we don’t really know.

PinkFridge

Fri, Mar 01 2019, 10:32 am

amother wrote:

When you say someone is evil, that is a statement about middos, that one had bechira and one constantly fed the monster. It speaks of a lack of control, of foresight, of strength.
Hashem is constantly in control. Hashem doesn't kivyachol "lose Himself."
This we know. If we choose to believe in G-d, which by definition has to be a Power Who is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient.

amother

Cerise

Fri, Mar 01 2019, 10:47 am

amother wrote:

In my limited understanding (and even more limited ability to articulate ideas): Within the world created there is a concept of kind/ goodness/ evil and our jobs as created beings , within this world, is to see the goodness and kindness.
There are lectures by Rabbi Tatz on simpletoremember.com that should address this.

Again- I was stuck with the above quoted dilemma for years until l learned to actually live and be in the moment and choose to see good / beauty/ kindness.
Its a hard work of process.
I believe my escape to what I considered intellectual integrity has other sources.

amother

Blush

Fri, Mar 01 2019, 12:06 pm

There’s nothing wrong with seeing the good and kindness in the world. It is a more positive, happier way to live and again, a good coping mechanism. But yet, there are hardships and pain and one cannot deny that to put someone through these hardships seems ruthless and unkind. Even according to many sources, Hashem is not all kindness and love. He also represents Din which is more harsh and there are places in Tanach where Hashem is described as being angry or disgusted at certain behaviors and there is obviously the concept of punishment. Realistically speaking, We don’t really know what Hashem is.

amother

Cerise

Fri, Mar 01 2019, 12:18 pm

amother wrote:

I dont disagree with your perspective looking outside the world Hashem created.
However, Imh understanding traveling from that position...
I came to understand that a Judaism wants us to work from within this world Hashem created. With both good and bad existing, and the mission “ is uvacharta baChaim”. Choose to focus on the good/ kindness/ light.
NOT because its a wonderful coping mechanism but because its the Truth!

this has been a long road for me.
Yes it is more pleasant to see the world this way. But its also the Torah truth!

imasoftov

Sun, Mar 03 2019, 8:48 am

Silver amother wrote:

... Judaism claims to be logically provable ...

Could you elaborate on that? Where is that claim found?

Note: a list of logical proofs that have been offered does not make that claim, and I only point this out is that people waste time here attempting to substitute something else for what I asked. If you believe that such a list justifies your statement MAKE that argument, don't assume it.

Also note that I'm not assuming any of the following
1) Judaism does or does not claim to be logically provable
2) Judaism is or is not logically provable
3) Any given proof that has been offered does or doesn't prove either the truth of Judaism as a whole or one part of Judaism.

imasoftov

Sun, Mar 03 2019, 8:52 am

amother wrote:

I don't remember the exact details, so please don't pick apart my mistakes. I do believe that I have the general idea correct. My dh recently told me a dvar torah and I will try to write out what I can. What he said really resonated with me and has been really helpful for my current situation.

I believe it was about Iyov and all his suffering. The malachim kept asking Hashem -"Why does Iyov have so many tzaros? He is such a big tzaddik." At a certain point Hashem replies - "Stop asking, or I will have to destroy the whole world."

Could you ask your DH for the source for that interpretation of Sefer Iyov? At at what point in the book did that happen?

PinkFridge

Sun, Mar 03 2019, 8:52 am

imasoftov wrote:

As I said, there is enough evidence that makes it reasonable to believe. Which is how you can have great intellectuals, who've really thought this through, believe. And same intellectuals stay away from using the word proof, but will use the word logic.

keym

Sun, Mar 03 2019, 9:45 am

imasoftov wrote:

Could you ask your DH for the source for that interpretation of Sefer Iyov? At at what point in the book did that happen?

I've heard that explanation. As a nice thought to explain the piyut from Yom Kippur- Eileh Ezkira. When the malachim ask zu Torah vzu sechora. And Hashem says "quiet. If you continue asking, I'll have to turn the world to Sohu Vavohu".
The shiur basically said Hashem wasn't threatening to destroy the world. He was saying that in order to explain, He'd have to take apart the whole world back to Sohu Vavohu just to explain.
But I'm not sure there was an actual source. Rather a nice thought.