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Hashem is so kind
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 03 2019, 6:47 am
keym wrote:
I've heard that explanation. As a nice thought to explain the piyut from Yom Kippur- Eileh Ezkira. When the malachim ask zu Torah vzu sechora. And Hashem says "quiet. If you continue asking, I'll have to turn the world to Sohu Vavohu".
The shiur basically said Hashem wasn't threatening to destroy the world. He was saying that in order to explain, He'd have to take apart the whole world back to Sohu Vavohu just to explain.
But I'm not sure there was an actual source. Rather a nice thought.


I've heard this too.
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ssspectacular




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 03 2019, 7:17 am
I started therapy in my 40s after a major depression and discovered that I had been denying the abuse and neglect that I endured as a child. There are no words to describe the pain and horror that I felt. And I had this terrible feeling that Hashem is mean and definitely doesn't care about me. If He would be kind, how could He let such things happen to children?
I had a lot of support to get thru this period, otherwise I really would not have survived, but I do remember spending a lot of time in nature then. Ifound peace in the ocean and sand, in the mountains and hills. But most of all, I was enamored by flowers. I spent hours in gardens and learned to love these delicate beauties, each one so different and so perfect. And I thought, if Hashem could create such beauty, He must be kind. There is no way a Cruel Creator could create such an exquisite world. And slowly I began to recover.
I have been tested many times since then and each time it is an effort to find His kindness. But I claw my way thru the darkness and hopefully can attach to His Oneness.
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amother
Vermilion


 

Post Sun, Mar 03 2019, 7:52 am
keym wrote:
I've heard that explanation. As a nice thought to explain the piyut from Yom Kippur- Eileh Ezkira. When the malachim ask zu Torah vzu sechora. And Hashem says "quiet. If you continue asking, I'll have to turn the world to Sohu Vavohu".
The shiur basically said Hashem wasn't threatening to destroy the world. He was saying that in order to explain, He'd have to take apart the whole world back to Sohu Vavohu just to explain.
But I'm not sure there was an actual source. Rather a nice thought.


I don't find anything nice about that thought. It just suggests that Hashem is unable to explain His own creation. Or that He created a world that can't be understood by those expected to live by His rules. Neither answer is very satisfying.

I prefer the Rambam's explanation in the Moreh Nevuchim(3:18). The vast majority of people don't have hashgacha pratis. You need to be a very special person for Hashem to micromanage your life. So for ordinary people, it makes no sense to speak of individual guidance.

I know this isn't the only opinion out there, but it's as mainstream as they come, and it goes a long way to helping some of us live in a world where bad things happen to good people.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 03 2019, 8:22 am
If we were able to understand G-d, G-d wouldn't be G-d.

At some point, you have to accept that you have to depend on faith more than you depend on your limited human understanding. Even if it's 51% faith, 49% logic, you need to tip the scales towards emunah. That's why it's called "a leap of faith". Do you really think you are as smart as G-d, that you would understand everything if He came down and explained it to you?

"The Garden of Emunah" by Rabbi Shalom Arush is a really good place to start understanding the concept of trusting Hashem without knowing the outcome.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 03 2019, 9:55 am
keym wrote:
I've heard that explanation. As a nice thought to explain the piyut from Yom Kippur- Eileh Ezkira. When the malachim ask zu Torah vzu sechora. And Hashem says "quiet. If you continue asking, I'll have to turn the world to Sohu Vavohu".
The shiur basically said Hashem wasn't threatening to destroy the world. He was saying that in order to explain, He'd have to take apart the whole world back to Sohu Vavohu just to explain.
But I'm not sure there was an actual source. Rather a nice thought.

I did think of the piyut containing that phrase but it doesn't (as far as I recall) mention Iyov.


Last edited by imasoftov on Sun, Mar 03 2019, 10:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Cerise


 

Post Sun, Mar 03 2019, 10:00 am
amother wrote:
I don't find anything nice about that thought. It just suggests that Hashem is unable to explain His own creation. Or that He created a world that can't be understood by those expected to live by His rules. Neither answer is very satisfying.

I prefer the Rambam's explanation in the Moreh Nevuchim(3:18). The vast majority of people don't have hashgacha pratis. You need to be a very special person for Hashem to micromanage your life. So for ordinary people, it makes no sense to speak of individual guidance.

I know this isn't the only opinion out there, but it's as mainstream as they come, and it goes a long way to helping some of us live in a world where bad things happen to good people.


I suggest Rabbi Akiva Tatzs ideas, which does incorporate this Morah Nevuchim, and would expand the topic and grant more food for thought.
People’s choices, in certain circumstances, can effect hashgacha on other individuals, but ultimately theres a Gdly plan that is fulfilled.

Simpletoremember.com has tons of his lectures.
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keym




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 03 2019, 12:23 pm
imasoftov wrote:
I did think of the piyut containing that phrase but it doesn't (as far as I recall) mention Iyov.


I've never heard that explanation relevant to Iyov at all. But then I've never really studied Iyov so I can't say either way.
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amother
Vermilion


 

Post Sun, Mar 03 2019, 12:39 pm
keym wrote:
I've never heard that explanation relevant to Iyov at all. But then I've never really studied Iyov so I can't say either way.
g

It's really a shame to miss out on Iyyov. Take the time to read it (at least the the beginning and the end). The sefer essentially repudiates the idea of simple answers to complicated questions. It allows us to be puzzled and still believe.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 03 2019, 12:44 pm
amother wrote:
I don't find anything nice about that thought. It just suggests that Hashem is unable to explain His own creation. Or that He created a world that can't be understood by those expected to live by His rules. Neither answer is very satisfying.

I prefer the Rambam's explanation in the Moreh Nevuchim(3:18). The vast majority of people don't have hashgacha pratis. You need to be a very special person for Hashem to micromanage your life. So for ordinary people, it makes no sense to speak of individual guidance.

I know this isn't the only opinion out there, but it's as mainstream as they come, and it goes a long way to helping some of us live in a world where bad things happen to good people.


Think of a choose your own adventure book. (Remember those?)
Imagine that all of us are the authors of our own books. All of us everywhere in the world.
Then for all time.
And that the impacts of decisions is multi-dimensional in time and space.

And that one Being, not a some super computer but G-d, is the master Editor and Publisher, with total knowledge and control of everything going on. To unpack one decision, anywhere in this whole creation, would truly involve unraveling creation.
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amother
Cyan


 

Post Sun, Mar 03 2019, 12:58 pm
ssspectacular wrote:
I started therapy in my 40s after a major depression and discovered that I had been denying the abuse and neglect that I endured as a child. There are no words to describe the pain and horror that I felt. And I had this terrible feeling that Hashem is mean and definitely doesn't care about me. If He would be kind, how could He let such things happen to children?
I had a lot of support to get thru this period, otherwise I really would not have survived, but I do remember spending a lot of time in nature then. Ifound peace in the ocean and sand, in the mountains and hills. But most of all, I was enamored by flowers. I spent hours in gardens and learned to love these delicate beauties, each one so different and so perfect. And I thought, if Hashem could create such beauty, He must be kind. There is no way a Cruel Creator could create such an exquisite world. And slowly I began to recover.
I have been tested many times since then and each time it is an effort to find His kindness. But I claw my way thru the darkness and hopefully can attach to His Oneness.


In my humble opinion, you're analyzing this in an incredibly narrow minded way. When hashem allowed tremendous pain to happen to you, he's bad. Hashem showed you this amazing beautiful world he created for us to enjoy, he's good.
What about looking at the world as a whole as best we can. There's obvious a tremendous amount of simcha and joy. There's beautiful thriving, healthy families that are happy and enjoy life. On the othet side there's sickness, disease, abuse, mental health issues, lonliness, infertility, financial dispair and the holocaust. How does any logical mind reach any other conclusion that hashem created or allowed both good and evil? It doesn't have to be exclusively one or the other. Of course then we can answer the evil part by saying really sickness and death is an act of kindness from hashem but we just don't understand.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 03 2019, 1:05 pm
ssspectacular wrote:
I started therapy in my 40s after a major depression and discovered that I had been denying the abuse and neglect that I endured as a child. There are no words to describe the pain and horror that I felt. And I had this terrible feeling that Hashem is mean and definitely doesn't care about me. If He would be kind, how could He let such things happen to children?
I had a lot of support to get thru this period, otherwise I really would not have survived, but I do remember spending a lot of time in nature then. Ifound peace in the ocean and sand, in the mountains and hills. But most of all, I was enamored by flowers. I spent hours in gardens and learned to love these delicate beauties, each one so different and so perfect. And I thought, if Hashem could create such beauty, He must be kind. There is no way a Cruel Creator could create such an exquisite world. And slowly I began to recover.
I have been tested many times since then and each time it is an effort to find His kindness. But I claw my way thru the darkness and hopefully can attach to His Oneness.


Not enough to like this.
My understanding of your post is, that once you realize Hashem created such a beautiful world, you were better to find beauty in everything, and it gave (and I hope continues to give) you perspective when the beauty's not obviously there.
Works for me.
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imorethanamother




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 03 2019, 3:29 pm
imasoftov wrote:
Could you ask your DH for the source for that interpretation of Sefer Iyov? At at what point in the book did that happen?


I'm confused. I don't remember learning this in Iyov, but this happens when Rabbi Akiva is being tortured to death. Zu Torah V'Zu Sechorah? And Hashem answers that he could "reduce the whole world to Tohu V'Vohu". I'm sure you know the parable of the tailor and the coat. Basically, the only way to understand the lives of individuals is to understand the Mind of God and His intentions in the world. And we can't.
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imorethanamother




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 03 2019, 3:35 pm
amother wrote:
I suggest Rabbi Akiva Tatzs ideas, which does incorporate this Morah Nevuchim, and would expand the topic and grant more food for thought.
People’s choices, in certain circumstances, can effect hashgacha on other individuals, but ultimately theres a Gdly plan that is fulfilled.

Simpletoremember.com has tons of his lectures.


https://www.torahanytime.com/#.....77696

It's here. Actually, it's pretty often that we can affect another individual. He even explains that the tribes could have killed Yosef, even though God intended Yosef to be alive and do all the things we read about.

I think there's a dichotomy between this thought, which I think explains so much, and the other school of thought, which is that anything another person does to you is only because he's the messenger of God and God intended you to suffer this thing.

Ultimately, this is why Dovid prayed for God to punish him directly, instead of letting it be through another person.
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 04 2019, 2:30 pm
Hashem is kind ~ until he is not

emunah = doing everything we can to face our lot in life & make changes

bitachon = letting go & letting god ... it is his world
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