How much do you really believe this?

Cheiny

Wed, Mar 06 2019, 7:03 pm

chestnut wrote:

How many tests in school did you fail when you knew the material very well? On how many tests did you do well when you had no idea what it was talking about?

Your example is not a good one. I know with my kids, sometimes despite studying they won’t have an easy time with the test and sometimes with no studying they ace it. While of course studying helps and must be done, that’s not a guarantee of acing a test, such as if it’s particularly hard...

Cheiny

Wed, Mar 06 2019, 7:04 pm

gande wrote:

I know someone who had emuna. He bought $100 worth of cake for shabbos. Cause hashem will pay back. He had no daga of parnassa, working for himself part time taking vaccinations whenever felt like, no business plan. Guess what he found himself maxed out on all ccs.

I know someone else, who buys what he needs but in school and middle class so fell in to some debt. He was adamant not to be in debt and prayed to hashem to help him. He took side jobs. Wife got creative and saw much hatzlacha in her small business which payed off the debt plus.
Its all in the attitude.

There is the concept of everything a person spends for Shabbos is paid back to him; again, that will be part of how much Hashem gives him overall.

Cheiny

Wed, Mar 06 2019, 7:05 pm

seeker wrote:

I wish I could remember the source of this maamar, I wrote it down when I learned it in school ages ago as it rang very true, but I neglected to write the source.

.לא שהשתדלות המועיל אלא מוכרך, וכיון שהשתדל יצא לידי חובתו וכבר יש מקום לברכת שמים שתשרה עליו....
Loose translation: Hishtadlus is not the cause, but it is required; when a person does hishtadlus then he has fulfilled his obligation and there is now room for the bracha to come from Heaven.

I've heard the same idea referenced to Rav Avigdor Miller - he says that hishtadlus is a mitzvah. Hashem wants people to do hishtadlus. The outcome of it is not in our hands but we are required to do it.

Exactly. You explained it well.

Cheiny

Wed, Mar 06 2019, 7:06 pm

shoshanim999 wrote:

Either you are misquoting or dare I say the maamar is incorrect. To what extent do you accept this maamar? If my 5 year old son needs a haircut and I do't take him to the barber (the hishtadlus) will hashem cut his hair? If I have a flat tire do I really need to do the hishtadlus and change it? Can I just rely on hashem to fix it? He certainly can fix it so why not rely on him?

Oy. No one is saying that. Hashem operates this world in a natural way, and for a person to function in a natural world he must take certain actions like the ones you mentioned. Having the hair get cut without going to the barber would require magic and we don’t believe in that.

Cheiny

Wed, Mar 06 2019, 7:10 pm

shoshanim999 wrote:

Your relying on an exception or an outlier and using it as the standard. I wouldn't necessarily say that believing hishtadlus causes a specific outcome removes god. I think it's just the system that god put into the world. He made it so that the more work and effort a person puts into something, the more LIKELY they are to achieve it. It's like I said earlier, that's why the Lakewood rabbanim travel all over the country to raise money. Why don't they keep it simple and do their hishtadlus by knocking on doors in Lakewood? Because hashem created the system to work in a way that in the overwhelming majority of instances, a persons success is determined by being practical about doing the things necessary to succeed.

So why doesn’t going to the Dr cause a cure for illness?

shoshanim999

Wed, Mar 06 2019, 7:30 pm

Cheiny wrote:

Do you really think anyone says that doing hishtadlus GUARANTEES results? Nobody would ever say that. Doing hishtadlus increases the likelihood of success. Whether the hishtadlus is going to college, studying for an exam, wearing a seatbelt, communicating with shadchanim when looking for a shidduch, ect. You can't refute this by claiming that you know a guy who contacted 5000 shadchanim and is still single. You can't refute this by saying that sometimes your kids do well on tests when they don't study.

shoshanim999

Wed, Mar 06 2019, 7:35 pm

Cheiny wrote:

So why doesn’t going to the Dr cause a cure for illness?

We all go to doctors because we all believe (including you) that going to a doctor, which is doing hishtadlus, will increase our chances of getting better. We don't stay home and daven and ask hashem to cure us. We (including you) don't believe that is in effective way to get better. Rather, we put our trust in the person who went to medical school that he will be able to help us thru his vast knowledge and understanding of medicine.
If you want to say hashem gave him that knowledge, fine.

Cheiny

Wed, Mar 06 2019, 7:40 pm

shoshanim999 wrote:

Doing hishtadlus increases the likelihood of success.

You’re wrong. No one will convince you until such time as you put aside what “common sense” tells you, and realize and accept fully that only Hashem decides on and causes results. ONLY Him. Hishtadlus has zero effect on outcome. If you don’t believe it, as I suggested earlier, ask a Rabbi.

Cheiny

Wed, Mar 06 2019, 7:42 pm

shoshanim999 wrote:

Al tivtichu b’nidivim b’ven adam she’ein lo teshua. If your mind is closed and you insist you know better, no one can or will convince you you’re wrong. If you’re really interested in the truth, do some learning on the subject.

amother

Aqua

Wed, Mar 06 2019, 7:57 pm

shoshanim999 wrote:

.....Rather, we put our trust in the person who went to medical school that he will be able to help us thru his vast knowledge and understanding of medicine.
If you want to say hashem gave him that knowledge, fine.

I urge you to move above and beyond this. If you trust in a person, then Hashem sort of removes Himself a little and you are limited to the skills of that person. But HKBH is so much bigger than this one doctor. But you also need to move beyond the idea that for sure the cure itself is in your best interest.

shoshanim999

Wed, Mar 06 2019, 8:09 pm

Cheiny wrote:

I guess we're going in circles. I believe everything comes from hashem. I also accept that hashem put a certain nature or order into the world and runs it in a certain way. And the nature of the world (given by hashem) is that the more hishtadlus, work, and effort we put into something, the more likely we will achieve our desired result. Every rav and rosh yeshiva agrees with this point. Like I mentioned above, they will leave their yeshivos and fly across the world to raise money. Why don't they just stay local and hashem will arrange it in some way? Do all the roshei yeshivos from bnei brak who fly into new york to raise money not realize they can just as easily have a simple appeal in shul with all the kollel guys and hashem will take it from there?

zaq

Wed, Mar 06 2019, 9:41 pm

Plain and simple—yaga’ti umatza’ti, taamin. And ONLY yaga’ti umatza’ti. Not matza’ti velo yaga’ti. If you want to debate whether the yaga’ti directly causes the matza’ti because the KBH designed it that way, or the KBH sees the yaga’ti and makes the matza’ti happen, the time you waste is your own. I fail to see that it matters. What matters is that you have to put in the yaga’ti to get the matza’ti.

amother

Vermilion

Thu, Mar 07 2019, 1:04 am

I'm having a very hard time with this right now.
My sister has been living very frivoulosly for the past twenty years and my parents have been bailing them out over and over again. She lives in a beautiful big house in the center of town paid in part by my parents. I went to ask them for help with a down payment on a house for me and they said they can only help very little.
I told my sister I'm upset at her because her lifestyle made me lose out and she now has a big house when I won't be able to afford one as nice.
Her response? "What are you mad at me for? Its from shamaim."
Is her going from one financial adventure to the next and failing over and over from shamaim?
When we were young my father helped both of us get a proffesional degree. I spent the last ten years working full time in my field getting a steady paycheck. She could have done the same instead of trying to get rich quick.
Or is it from shamaim and I should just shot up?

seeker

Thu, Mar 07 2019, 1:06 am

MitzadSheini wrote:

I would add that a person who truly believes this would never compromise on mitzvos for hishtadlus. So they would never say - if I keep working at whatever I am doing instead of going to daven mincha then I will get a better result with what I am doing. They won't eat at the non Jewish boss's wife's non kosher restaurant in the hope that it will encourage the boss to give him a raise. They will not put in a dodgy claim.for benefits to try to get more.money. And so on.

I agree, this is the true yardstick of whether a person's hishtadlus is in the right place.

seeker

Thu, Mar 07 2019, 1:15 am

shoshanim999 wrote:

Here's where I beg to differ.

According to the philosophy I'm going with, you don't go to a doctor because you believe it increases your chances of getting better - you go to a doctor because your illness plus the way the world is set up tells you that this is what Hashem demands of you at this time. Then you pray that it has the desired effect. If you put your trust in the person who went to medical school then you are in direct opposition of actual mitzvos. It is indeed a great challenge and most people need to work constantly on it. But to just say "nope, let's put our trust in the doctor" well, I'm sad to hear that.

On a separate note, you keep using the terminology "increase the chances." I think this discussion may go in circles until we clarify what this means. What does it mean to "increase/decrease the chance" of something happening? Is chance random? If it is not random then what does it mean to have "chance?" I don't have answers, but I think it's an important question.

TranquilityAndPeace

Thu, Mar 07 2019, 1:39 am

Why do we only talk about Hishtadlus when it comes to $$$???

If I am hungry, and I do the hishtadlus of putting food in my mouth and chewing, Hashem makes me satiated. If I refuse to put the food into my mouth or chew, and pray that Hashem alleviate my hunger, that is lacking hishtadlus, and is not the way Hashem made this world run -- with the exception of miracles.

If I want to go to 7 Mile Market, and I get in my car and drive there, I did my hishtadlus so that Hashem got me there. That's the way the world works!

Are there unusual happenings in the world like winning the lottery? Of course, yet unusual. If Hashem hadn't wanted me to reach 7 Mile Market, He has infinite ways to stop me. And He has infinite ways to get me there, even if it hadn't been on my agenda. He created the wold that when I choose to do something and then go through the action of doing it, He brings me the result I want.

Why do we only refer to Hashem being in charge of the end result when we talk about earning money????

amother

Turquoise

Thu, Mar 07 2019, 2:00 am

TranquilityAndPeace wrote:

Because earning money is hard and because it so often involves going to university.

seeker

Thu, Mar 07 2019, 2:03 am

TranquilityAndPeace wrote:

Scroll up, we had a 5 year old getting a haircut (great example!) as well as some doctor consultations.

And there's no end to the problems people have when they put food into their mouths and don't feel satiated...so that's another great example. As is your shopping trip.

mig100

Thu, Mar 07 2019, 3:06 am

TranquilityAndPeace wrote:

Why do we only talk about Hishtadlus when it comes to $$$???

We don't. This concept applies in every single aspect of our life big and small- shiduchim, parenting, seeking medical care etc etc

Though to b honest I was about to respond to a dif comment using example if parnassa when I saw ur post.

So I asked myself -Why was I ganna do that ? I'm not sure . I can think of several reasons

1) it's a simple example that works well to illustrate a point. There r tons of exceptions of course. Yet generally theres a correlation between results and efforts. I go to work I get paid. I don't go to work I don't get paid. Again that's very simplified. There r plenty of exceptions

2) it's an area of life that affects everyone

3) hashem can provide food at our doorstep. He doesn't "need" us to work. One if the reasons why world is set up that we "need" to work is to test exactly this belief- can we work hard and still honestly believe parnassa is completely in hashem hands?? ( not our bosses or client's)
Thus making money the perfect area to illustratw this concept

mig100

Thu, Mar 07 2019, 3:17 am

chestnut wrote:

Interesting topic. I believe that to some extent, they are. If I study for the test, I pass. If I don't (and I'm not a genius), I won't.

Loaded comment. Loaded topic

They r related. Yet at same time they r not

On one hand everything is completely in hashems hands and our actions don't change his mafsterplan an iota ( or ur mark on the test). On the other hand world is set up to run in natural way. ( u study the material. U know the answers. U get a better grade)

Why is world wet up this way? To test us

This sounds like a contradiction? Remember who put laws of nature in place? Yes there r natural consequences to our actions. ( study= better grade) Yet who controls our actions and results?

( Ie who gave u ability to concentrate and study, ability to remember material, ability to understand question correctlt on test)

Ex my boss gives me a paycheck. Who gives my boss the money?

Think of a smokscreen. Or a child holding ur hand as u write. Or Baruch Levine's piano song... or whatever example works for u.

If this sound confusing. Ur not alone. it is.