Including woman in kibbudim for wedding

Batsheva1

Fri, Mar 08 2019, 1:56 pm

I went to a wedding a few months back with a similar situation. They wanted it to be halachic but have women participate. This is what they did: They invited both the husband and wife up for the brachot. The husband said the bracha in hebrew (the traditional bracha) then the wife said a short but appropriate personal bracha and wishes for the couple in English. It worked well and no one there felt uncomfortable.

amother

Red

Fri, Mar 08 2019, 2:22 pm

urban gypsy wrote:

I have no idea who these people are, but I'm sure their Jewish knowledge isn't all that advanced if they are convinced that a woman can be an Orthodox rabbi.

I'm just trying to help by providing a list of kibbudim that a woman could potentially be honoured with at an Orthodox wedding. They can discuss whatever they want with the mesader kiddushin.

I was in a similar situation, except wanting to honor a non-Jewish relative at a bris. I asked the mohel (who was also a rabbi), and he told me the options he was willing to do and we picked a nice one.

Fri, Mar 08 2019, 2:46 pm

urban gypsy wrote:

I have no idea who these people are, but I'm sure their Jewish knowledge isn't all that advanced if they are convinced that a woman can be an Orthodox rabbi.

Oy. With this attitude, you should probably stay out of it.

urban gypsy

Fri, Mar 08 2019, 2:53 pm

cm wrote:

Oy. With this attitude, you should probably stay out of it.

Look at my OP. Look at what you just wrote.
And then decide who has the attitude problem.

There are probably under 10 women worldwide who could conceivably call themselves an Orthodox Rabbi. The probability that one of these is the woman in question is infinitesimal.

If I find out who it is, I will update to say that I know and you can PM me to find out.

amother

Ivory

Sat, Mar 09 2019, 7:44 am

urban gypsy wrote:

I'm posting this question on behalf of a friend of a friend, so I don't have many details, but I was hoping some creative imamother might have a solution to this quandry:

A traditional, Orthodox affiliated (but not frum) couple is making an Orthodox wedding and they would like to include a woman who they are close with in the kibbudim.

The family claims that she is an Orthodox rabbi, so I am guessing she may be a maharat, but I don't know who she is so I am not sure.

Is there anything respectful role that she can be assigned to honour and include her at an Orthodox wedding?

I wouldn’t suggest ideas that it is unclear if the actual mesader kidushin would agree to (like some of the ones listed here). Dh is a community Rabbi for many traditional-type couples and if they were told no for something they suggested, it might be more upsetting for all.
I would recommend they sit down with the Rabbi officiating and ask him for suggestions that he’ll be ok with.

amother

Seafoam

Sat, Mar 09 2019, 12:36 pm

They should choose a liberal rav to officiate if this is important to them.

Many orthodox rabbis allow women to read something aloud between the sheva brachot, for example. But they need to find out first; if it's an old school or RW rav, then he won't agree.

There is even a group of orthodox rabbanim in Israel that now gave a psak that allows women to say the sheva brachot itself (yes, orthodox rabbis!) I forget which group, and can't find the link right now. But it exists. They should do their research.

Most important thing is to have everyone on board. At an Israeli wedding I was at recently, they brought a mesader kiddushin from NY. The kallah's cousin wanted to say the sheva brachot aloud along with her husband (so a man would be saying it, in any case), and the mesader kiddushin got really annoyed. Best to avoid these types of scenarios.

Ruchel

Sat, Mar 09 2019, 2:04 pm

I"ve seen a anglo type wedding where a woman said one of the brachos. Not my style at all but if an Orthodox rabbi said ok
Remember we bring the kallah and for some the chosson! bh

Rappel

Sat, Mar 09 2019, 3:55 pm

She can be the official Ketubah guard.

Something like this: After the bride receives it, the bride formally entrusts the ketubah to her for safekeeping, along with some kind of formal statement/pasuk

etky

Sat, Mar 09 2019, 4:32 pm

Batsheva1 wrote:

I've seen this at many weddings.
Also, a woman as the MC and/or a woman (sometimes one of the mothers) giving a dvar Torah or wishes for the couple at some point during the chuppah.

amother

Maroon

Sat, Mar 09 2019, 7:47 pm

Some things that I've seen - approved by a rov for each circumstance but obviously they'd need to check if it is ok with their rov.

-Women saying an English translation/explanation of each of the Sheva brachos
-Women finishing the cup of wine used for the brachos under the chuppah, with the explanation that it is a Kos shel bracha
-bringing the ring
-singing the marriage certificate - the secular witnesses

urban gypsy

Mon, Mar 11 2019, 12:09 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Oh yes secular witness is never a problem I've seen this in charedi weddings. Bringing the ring or flower girl or whatever is also never a problem?

Flower girl is so not appropriate in this case! Confused

amother

Cerise

Mon, Mar 11 2019, 2:01 pm

amother wrote:

That makes the most sense.

Miri7

Mon, Mar 11 2019, 3:06 pm

The folks who say to ask the mesader kiddushin are exactly right. You’ll get a wide variation between rabbis of what they will accept. Ours allowed a woman friend to read our ketubah.

I’d take some of the suggestions here and ask the Rav what he’s ok with or if he has different ideas.

amother

Papaya

Mon, Mar 11 2019, 3:16 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Oh yes secular witness is never a problem I've seen this in charedi weddings. Bringing the ring or flower girl or whatever is also never a problem?

Not true. Reb Chaim Kenievsky and many other gedolei hador in E"Y say that if one of the witnesess owns an unfiltered phone, it is a big problem. These things aren't simple, we must be careful.

urban gypsy

Mon, Mar 11 2019, 3:17 pm

amother wrote:

Not true. Reb Chaim Kenievsky and many other gedolei hador in E"Y say that if one of the witnesess owns an unfiltered phone, it is a big problem. These things aren't simple, we must be careful.

One of the secular witnesses?!?!?!

Shabbosiscoming

Mon, Mar 11 2019, 3:39 pm

urban gypsy wrote:

One of the secular witnesses?!?!?!

I think amother misunderstood that it referred to the legal, secular document. She thought secular witness meant a witness on the kesubah who is not shomer shabbos.

Edited for typos

Ruchel

Tue, Mar 12 2019, 9:55 am

amother wrote:

Not true. Reb Chaim Kenievsky and many other gedolei hador in E"Y say that if one of the witnesess owns an unfiltered phone, it is a big problem. These things aren't simple, we must be careful.

HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

sorry no other reaction

secular witness can be your [gentile] neighbour