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Does playgroup morah have final say?
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watergirl




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Mar 12 2019, 1:16 pm
Sebastian wrote:
sometimes my boss asks me to do something I don't like. Too bad. My boss is the boss and I have to do what I'm told.

The mother is the morah's boss. She tells the morah what to do, not vice versa.

Thats not true at all. Just like I am not my kid’s teachers bosses.

The playgroups have policies and the parents can like it or lump it. Of course it would be nice if the teacher would be accommodating but I’ve been in that position at preschool in the past as a teacher and the policy has always been that there is nap time. Even at the highest accredited preschools that I worked at (NAEYC), nap time or quiet on mat time Is not only a mandated by the accrediting agency but by the state for accreditation as well. Obviously this play groups are not going through licensing or accreditation, but it is very standard in preschools that there is naptime or quiet time. If a parent told us to keep their child up, we would inform the parents of the child is provided with books, puzzles, or coloring but we will not prevent the kids from falling asleep.
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Sebastian




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Mar 12 2019, 1:20 pm
watergirl, sorry if the mom asks not to nap the kid, the response should not be to drug him. Doing quiet time instead would probably be okay with OP.

Every decent morah I know works with the parents. Op isn't asking for anything crazy.

[Also a 2+ hr nap is very long. My toddler is not yet 18 mo and barely naps for 1.5 hr.]
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watergirl




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Mar 12 2019, 1:24 pm
Sebastian wrote:
watergirl, sorry if the mom asks not to nap the kid, the response should not be to drug him. Doing quiet time instead would probably be okay with OP.

Every decent morah I know works with the parents. Op isn't asking for anything crazy.

[Also a 2+ hr nap is very long. My toddler is not yet 18 mo and barely naps for 1.5 hr.]

I agree that the morah is out of line with the melatonin suggestion. My point that you ignored is that the parent is not the boss. There is policy in place and at the end of the day, the teacher is free to enforce it and the parent is free to take it or leave it. Some kids wont sit on their mat for quiet time, I had this as a teacher. Its very hard for all.
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Ema of 4




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Mar 12 2019, 1:29 pm
Sebastian wrote:
watergirl, sorry if the mom asks not to nap the kid, the response should not be to drug him. Doing quiet time instead would probably be okay with OP.

Every decent morah I know works with the parents. Op isn't asking for anything crazy.

[Also a 2+ hr nap is very long. My toddler is not yet 18 mo and barely naps for 1.5 hr.]

The response was not to drug him. OP said he is not going to sleep at NIGHT (becasue of his nap) to which the Morah responded to give him melatonin- AT NIGHT.
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amother




Orchid


Post  Tue, Mar 12 2019, 1:34 pm
amother wrote:
My sons morah is insisting on napping my 2 year old. He's in from approx a quarter to 11-1. He plays around in the bedroom and takes a while till he falls asleep.

For the past week at least, he's been giving me a hard time going to sleep at home and often doesn't fall asleep till 9 or 10 at night. On shabbos and sunday he did not nap amd went to sleep nicely at 7.
He also suddenly started crying to leave the door open, when its always been closed for him to go to sleep. And waking middle of night crying.

I'm not sure if the problem is literally the nap, and without the nap he'd go to sleep nicely. Or that he's miserable at playgroup and having fears.

The morah claims he's happy there. He cries every morning and he's usually a happy go lucky kid who'll go anywhere. He actually cried today new playgroup, new playgroup. And when I pulled up he said no, no.

I feel awful leaving him there. But I don't know of any other options. All the other playgroups in my area are completely full.

Back to the nap issue. I tried asking her to skip nap to see if it makes a difference to nightime routine. She gave me a whole speech how its not fair to HER to skip the nap cuz she put so much energy into getting him into nap routine and training him to stay in bed all year. She needs the 2 hours brain space (hello I do too from 7-10pm) (and what am I paying her for) and I should talk to dr and give him melatinon at night.
Am I wrong?

Wow sorry this got really long!


Thats the part that is worrisome. Is he resisting the Morahs attempt to get him to nap, so she is using forceful tactics to get him to do so?

Your sons reaction didnt come out of nowhere. I would look into how she is getting him to nap.
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amother




Navy


Post  Tue, Mar 12 2019, 1:38 pm
Former playgroup teacher here. I feel like both sides are not being represented here. The single biggest issue with not letting the kid nap is what exactly happens while everyone else is napping??? So you have 11 cranky, tired 2 yr olds napping and there's this one kid whose mom called asking not to nap, and now he's dancing and singing, waking all the kids up while they are trying to nap. When you have a solution to this problem, you can talk about keeping your kid up. Since there is no solution, it's selfish to ask the teachers to accommodate you at the expense of the other preschoolers.
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Ema of 4




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Mar 12 2019, 2:04 pm
amother wrote:
Former playgroup teacher here. I feel like both sides are not being represented here. The single biggest issue with not letting the kid nap is what exactly happens while everyone else is napping??? So you have 11 cranky, tired 2 yr olds napping and there's this one kid whose mom called asking not to nap, and now he's dancing and singing, waking all the kids up while they are trying to nap. When you have a solution to this problem, you can talk about keeping your kid up. Since there is no solution, it's selfish to ask the teachers to accommodate you at the expense of the other preschoolers.

Having a kid awake doesn’t mean they have to be disturbing. As I said in my comment, the mom (or teacher) can provide books, so quiet toys, some coloring pages....
As for it being selfish, that’s not fair. The Morah has to deal with the kid during the day. And then the mom has to deal with him when he gets home. They are supposed to be partners, working together to help the child learn and grow.
You can not force a child to sleep if they don’t want to. It just won’t happen. You can try, but it won’t work. And it may end up disturbing the other kids. Why not brainstorm with the mom, and see if there is a compromise, such as any of the ones I mentioned above, that could work?
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Spaghetti7




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Mar 12 2019, 2:16 pm
nechamashifra wrote:
Take him out of that playgroup. I would not send him another day.


Same.
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amother




Navy


Post  Tue, Mar 12 2019, 2:30 pm
Ema of 4 wrote:
Having a kid awake doesn’t mean they have to be disturbing. As I said in my comment, the mom (or teacher) can provide books, so quiet toys, some coloring pages....
As for it being selfish, that’s not fair. The Morah has to deal with the kid during the day. And then the mom has to deal with him when he gets home. They are supposed to be partners, working together to help the child learn and grow.
You can not force a child to sleep if they don’t want to. It just won’t happen. You can try, but it won’t work. And it may end up disturbing the other kids. Why not brainstorm with the mom, and see if there is a compromise, such as any of the ones I mentioned above, that could work?


Maybe. Just understand that during rest time the lights are off and there is soft music playing. You're suggesting an idea where we are relying on a 2/3 year old to play quietly and not disturb the other children that are literally 5 feet away. Also, when some of the kids notice another playing instead of sleeping, they want to play as well.
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ectomorph




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Mar 12 2019, 2:36 pm
The melatonin part is off the wall. Along with the other details like unhappy child etc I would pull him out yesterday.

My kids school has a required nap time but if they don't want to nap they can sit quietly with a book.
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Rachel Shira




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Mar 12 2019, 2:43 pm
I teach two year olds.
This teacher sounds crazy. To suggest that a parent should give their kid melatonin at night to be able to sustain a 2 hour nap in school for the teacher’s quiet time? That’s nuts. 2 year olds are at the age of outgrowing naps and your request is totally normal. She should give him quiet solitary activities for half an hour to an hour or however long he can handle, and that time can be her break.
I don’t agree that parents are the bosses of the teacher. At the end of the day, it is her program and she can make whatever rules she wants. Just know that this is an unreasonable one.
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Ema of 4




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Mar 12 2019, 2:53 pm
amother wrote:
Maybe. Just understand that during rest time the lights are off and there is soft music playing. You're suggesting an idea where we are relying on a 2/3 year old to play quietly and not disturb the other children that are literally 5 feet away. Also, when some of the kids notice another playing instead of sleeping, they want to play as well.

I understand, I’ve worked in two year old playgroups before. I’m not saying the kid is going to do it nicely the entire time, and won’t need reminders, but I think trying other things is better than calling the mom selfish. How is the wanting a break at night and different Jan the Morah wanting a break during the day?
You don’t go into a 2 year old playgroup expecting a 2 hour break. You go into a 2 year old playgroup knowing that, at some point, nap time is going to dwindle and turn into quiet time. How can you possibly force a 2 year old t sleep? I would never even think of such a thing. If a child doesn’t want to sleep, you give hem other things to keep them quiet. The end. If they really can’t stay quiet, then it is the Morah’s job to find something else to keep him occupied so he doesn’t bother the other kids.
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amother




Navy


Post  Tue, Mar 12 2019, 3:03 pm
Ema of 4 wrote:
I understand, I’ve worked in two year old playgroups before. I’m not saying the kid is going to do it nicely the entire time, and won’t need reminders, but I think trying other things is better than calling the mom selfish. How is the wanting a break at night and different Jan the Morah wanting a break during the day?
You don’t go into a 2 year old playgroup expecting a 2 hour break. You go into a 2 year old playgroup knowing that, at some point, nap time is going to dwindle and turn into quiet time. How can you possibly force a 2 year old t sleep? I would never even think of such a thing. If a child doesn’t want to sleep, you give hem other things to keep them quiet. The end. If they really can’t stay quiet, then it is the Morah’s job to find something else to keep him occupied so he doesn’t bother the other kids.


It's strange that the op said the teacher said that nap time is her "break". I honestly find that hard to believe. I think on some level giving a small child activities while all the other kids are trying to sleep is a little tricky. That's what the teacher should have said.
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amother




Orchid


Post  Tue, Mar 12 2019, 3:15 pm
Ema of 4 wrote:
I understand, I’ve worked in two year old playgroups before. I’m not saying the kid is going to do it nicely the entire time, and won’t need reminders, but I think trying other things is better than calling the mom selfish. How is the wanting a break at night and different Jan the Morah wanting a break during the day?
You don’t go into a 2 year old playgroup expecting a 2 hour break. You go into a 2 year old playgroup knowing that, at some point, nap time is going to dwindle and turn into quiet time. How can you possibly force a 2 year old t sleep? I would never even think of such a thing. If a child doesn’t want to sleep, you give hem other things to keep them quiet. The end. If they really can’t stay quiet, then it is the Morah’s job to find something else to keep him occupied so he doesn’t bother the other kids.


Exactly. One of my sons outgrew his nap by 20 months. He never needed sleep. We used to joke that he has built-in rechargeable batteries since he never tired. But his playgroup Morahs worked with him. They had rest for about a half hour or so - he didn't have to fall asleep, - and then he was able to get up and play quietly in a corner. To expect all 2 years old to be on the same page is unreasonable.

I don't know if its only me- but I find that 11-1 hour naptime a bit odd for 2 year olds. It sounds a bit early for a 2 year old to be tired enough for a 2 hour nap. My kids' playgroups usually had naptime after lunch at this age.
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amother




Orchid


Post  Tue, Mar 12 2019, 3:20 pm
amother wrote:
Former playgroup teacher here. I feel like both sides are not being represented here. The single biggest issue with not letting the kid nap is what exactly happens while everyone else is napping??? So you have 11 cranky, tired 2 yr olds napping and there's this one kid whose mom called asking not to nap, and now he's dancing and singing, waking all the kids up while they are trying to nap. When you have a solution to this problem, you can talk about keeping your kid up. Since there is no solution, it's selfish to ask the teachers to accommodate you at the expense of the other preschoolers.


If the mother is asking for her child not to nap just for her own personal gain, maybe she is selfish. But if the mother is requesting it because its making her child miserable, then she is totally not selfish.

To expect all two years to have the exact same needs is totally unrealistic. A playgroup Morah should be working together with the parents to meet the needs of all of the kids, not only the majority. Instead of all the energy she used to force the child to take a nap that he does not need, she should be expending that energy to train the child to play quietly while the rest of the kids are sleeping.
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little neshamala




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Mar 12 2019, 3:52 pm
OP you have a lot of good advice here. Just wanted to add that my 20 month old baby just outgrew his naps. He kept waking up at night, roaring to play...I told his babysitter and she stopped putting him in a pack n play to signify the nap time, and instead just followed his cues. Which basically said, I dont need a nap. She says he plays beautifully the whole day, when other babies nap he entertains himself with blocks etc...and now he sleeps through the night again.
I cant imagine his babysitter being unwilling to accommodate his needs...you're in a really tough spot.
(Btw it bothers me that your son is not happy going there)
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Ema of 4




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Mar 12 2019, 3:59 pm
amother wrote:
If the mother is asking for her child not to nap just for her own personal gain, maybe she is selfish. But if the mother is requesting it because its making her child miserable, then she is totally not selfish.

To expect all two years to have the exact same needs is totally unrealistic. A playgroup Morah should be working together with the parents to meet the needs of all of the kids, not only the majority. Instead of all the energy she used to force the child to take a nap that he does not need, she should be expending that energy to train the child to play quietly while the rest of the kids are sleeping.

Exactly!!! I had one kid who gave up naps at 15 months. There was nothing I could do about it.
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Rachel Shira




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Mar 12 2019, 4:01 pm
The difference between a mother wanting her time and a teacher wanting her time is that the teacher is being paid to entertain the child. If she wants a long break with no kids during the day, she should find a different job. It is definitely exhausting, but that’s the nature of being a preschool teacher.
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mommyhood




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Mar 12 2019, 4:06 pm
amother wrote:
Maybe. Just understand that during rest time the lights are off and there is soft music playing. You're suggesting an idea where we are relying on a 2/3 year old to play quietly and not disturb the other children that are literally 5 feet away. Also, when some of the kids notice another playing instead of sleeping, they want to play as well.

Op said he plays around in the bedroom before falling asleep. Doesn't sound like anyone is 5 feet away.
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amother




Black


Post  Tue, Mar 12 2019, 5:03 pm
Can we please take this conversation away from the naps and focus on the fact that the kid, who's been in this playgroup since September, is crying at drop-off??? Big huge red flag to me.

I have had all kinds of experiences with sending kids to playgroups, and IME, when a kid cries past the first few weeks, you need to get the kid away from there. Your child cannot communicate well, but in the only way he knows, he is telling you he doesn't like it there and doesn't want to be there. If you're not there during hours, you have no way of knowing what's going on there. And that is pretty scary, if you think about it. You cannot trust the teacher to be honest and aware of your child.

One of my kids was being bullied in playgroup. It took me awhile to get it out of my child, but eventually, my DD named the kid who was pinching her and pulling her earrings, etc. When I asked the teacher to keep an eye on my child, she said, yeah that kid is a bully; he's not bothering only your child. So Teacher knows he's a bully, but my child was getting a nice brunt of it which Teacher didn't acknowledge. And what was she doing about it? Putting the bully in the corner after he hurt someone. And in the meantime, my kid was suffering.

Then there was the time where my kid was sitting in a coat for an HOUR before pickup. How do I know? Because I randomly picked him up early. And my kid was sitting in his coat in a dark room with a bunch of kids in coats, nobody playing with anything. Teacher was sitting on a chair and not interacting with them. Hello??? Is it a wonder my child was crying at drop-off?

Please, please, for the sake of your child who can't talk and detail to you what it is that's bothering him, find a new playgroup. One where the teacher will be empathetic to you, helpful, cooperative, and iy"H your child will be happy to go every day.
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