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Shtisel, my vent
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amother




Cyan


Post  Wed, Mar 13 2019, 8:22 am
I just began watching Shtisel and Im hooked.

But I think theyre misrepresenting the facts, certainly from a financial viewpoint.

They show many of the characters struggling financially, like Shulem, Gitty, Shulem's son who regrets not becoming a singer, etc. and I think the message is that with no secular education, youre doomed to struggling.

In reality, whether in the USA or Israel, who in either Charedi community, are the ones donating the multi millions to build the glorious Shuls?????????????????

Not the (usually more modern) lawyers and doctors, who killed themselves for their educations and their careers. Its ALL businessmen with no college degrees, donating the millions.

True, there arent that many multi- millionaire frum businessmen who are successful enough to donate millions.

But in most cases,

Even though lawyers and doctors generally get a paycheck, and dont have to travel to Argentina to support their families, unless the professionals are 2 paycheck families or have Yerusha money, they cant give down payments to children (either in the USA or Israel).

While its the businessmen like plumbers and electricians (more Charedi and less Charedi, it has no connection to how religious they are), not only the multi millionaires, and not the professionals, are more likely to earn enough and save enough, to have enough money to give kids down payments and live a higher lifestyle.

So portraying the Charedi uneducated masses as predominantly and more likely to be struggling financially, isnt that real.

The way I see it, is, that its the much less struggling businessmen vs the more struggling professionals who can afford to be more generous with their families.

Imho, the message Shtisel gives off, even though the Stisel writers are very positive about the Charedi lifestyle, is that its the (nebach) Charedi population struggling financially more than others, which I feel is inaccurate.
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HappyGoLucky1




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Mar 13 2019, 8:57 am
I agree, I was actually thinking similarly. While I understand life is different in Israel than the US, they could have painted a more neutral picture in terms of finances. Even if they wanted to portray the poor family as part of the storyline, they should have mixed in a comfortable lifestyle as well. After all, when you think of it, the mother is living in a senior care center - those are not cheap! It kind of clashes with the lifestyle the whole family is living under.
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amother




Dodgerblue


Post  Wed, Mar 13 2019, 9:01 am
Umm actually no. That’s pretty accurate. Statistically in Israel a good percentage of Chareidim live under the poverty line.
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ectomorph




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Mar 13 2019, 9:20 am
Also they don't seem that poor. Decent apartments. No one is starving.
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amother




Slategray


Post  Wed, Mar 13 2019, 9:25 am
Nothing to do with Shtisel because I don’t watch but I beg to differ.
No plumbers & electricians are not earning more than your average ophthalmologist, obstetrician, partner in a law practice etc.
They just don’t.
B”H there are many very successful business people but there are many more who aren’t!
I have a successful business. It has enabled us to buy a house, cars, pay full tuition, tutors etc.
It’s also meant working 16 hour day at times, years of earning no money & selling off assets meant for retirement. The stress is high.
Not complaining , we’re B”H grateful for everything. However , a successful professional does not have the same risks & uncertainly & yes they earn more at least in chutz l”aretz.
I have family in EY & they definitely live below the poverty line.
Helping kids? Down payments? Sorry that’s not your average successful business person or a plumber...
Not while paying tuition for 8-10 kids.
I don’t dream of that & im not sure it’s goid for kids either.
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amother




Blue


Post  Wed, Mar 13 2019, 10:00 am
amother wrote:
I just began watching Shtisel and Im hooked.

But I think theyre misrepresenting the facts, certainly from a financial viewpoint.

They show many of the characters struggling financially, like Shulem, Gitty, Shulem's son who regrets not becoming a singer, etc. and I think the message is that with no secular education, youre doomed to struggling.

In reality, whether in the USA or Israel, who in either Charedi community, are the ones donating the multi millions to build the glorious Shuls?????????????????

Not the (usually more modern) lawyers and doctors, who killed themselves for their educations and their careers. Its ALL businessmen with no college degrees, donating the millions.

True, there arent that many multi- millionaire frum businessmen who are successful enough to donate millions.

But in most cases,

Even though lawyers and doctors generally get a paycheck, and dont have to travel to Argentina to support their families, unless the professionals are 2 paycheck families or have Yerusha money, they cant give down payments to children (either in the USA or Israel).

While its the businessmen like plumbers and electricians (more Charedi and less Charedi, it has no connection to how religious they are), not only the multi millionaires, and not the professionals, are more likely to earn enough and save enough, to have enough money to give kids down payments and live a higher lifestyle.

So portraying the Charedi uneducated masses as predominantly and more likely to be struggling financially, isnt that real.

The way I see it, is, that its the much less struggling businessmen vs the more struggling professionals who can afford to be more generous with their families.

Imho, the message Shtisel gives off, even though the Stisel writers are very positive about the Charedi lifestyle, is that its the (nebach) Charedi population struggling financially more than others, which I feel is inaccurate.


I didn't see that at all. (and plumbers and electricians aren't "businessmen, they are trades people").

There was no message. There were a lot of sad people - but sad people make for interesting plot-lines.
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amother




Salmon


Post  Wed, Mar 13 2019, 10:11 am
Maybe I misunderstood your post.
Are you saying that since wealthy chareidy businessmen donate millions to put up multi million dollar buildings, this proves that taken as a whole, the chareidy community is not struggling financially. Is this your point?
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groovy1224




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Mar 13 2019, 10:20 am
First of all, Shulem wasn't really portrayed as struggling. At some point in the show it mentions he is paying 6 mortgages on apartments for his kids. So he obviously has money.

Second of all, portraying that chareidim are more likely to struggle isn't real? Over half of chareidim in Yerushalayim live below the poverty line. I don't know the exact percentage for non religious Israelis but I believe for that population it's about 8%? Something like that. The fact that a handful of successful chareidim are able to donate millions does not all of a sudden mean that the majority of chareidi Jews are rolling in dough, or are actually BETTER off than educated professionals.
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ectomorph




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Mar 13 2019, 10:27 am
A lot of the old meah shearim families own real estate. Remember they've been around longer than anyone else.
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amother




Salmon


Post  Wed, Mar 13 2019, 10:41 am
ectomorph wrote:
A lot of the old meah shearim families own real estate. Remember they've been around longer than anyone else.



Are you saying that families in meah shearim aren't very poor compared to most other communities?
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ectomorph




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Mar 13 2019, 10:55 am
amother wrote:
Are you saying that families in meah shearim aren't very poor compared to most other communities?

No, they are. They kah kein yirbu often have large families.

But to balance that they often share the rights to valuable real estate. It may be just enough to pay the rent but its something.
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amother




Cyan


Post  Wed, Mar 13 2019, 10:57 am
amother wrote:
Maybe I misunderstood your post.
Are you saying that since wealthy chareidy businessmen donate millions to put up multi million dollar buildings, this proves that taken as a whole, the chareidy community is not struggling financially. Is this your point?


No. My point is that even with secular educations, most are struggling.

Someone above mentioned partners in law firms.

For every law graduate who makes it to become a partner, there are MANY more who pay student loans for years, and never make it to be partner and work long hours all their lives, and yes, theyre not on programs, but they dont have extra money.
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gingertop




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Mar 13 2019, 10:59 am
ectomorph wrote:
A lot of the old meah shearim families own real estate. Remember they've been around longer than anyone else.


Interestingly enough, most Meah Shearim families don't have what we would call a proper asset in terms of an apartment. Many of the apartments in Meah Shearim and Beis Yisrael are hekdeishim so they can only own it as long as they live (shlisel gelt).
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amother




Linen


Post  Wed, Mar 13 2019, 10:59 am
amother wrote:
No. My point is that even with secular educations, most are struggling.

Someone above mentioned partners in law firms.

For every law graduate who makes it to become a partner, there are MANY more who pay student loans for years, and never make it to be partner and work long hours all their lives, and yes, theyre not on programs, but they dont have extra money.

My husband is a big law lawyer. He tells people not to go to law school. The real statistics for frum men are dismal. Less than 25% make over 60k a year. It's not enough to supporta frum family
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gingertop




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Mar 13 2019, 11:02 am
OP, I didn't feel at all that the Shtisel's were portrayed as extra poor. For their community, they actually seem to be doing ok. Living in an old but decent apartment. Some financial concerns but not relying on tzedaka. I've seen much much worse poverty in Yerushalmi friends whose husbands and themselves work.
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amother




Cyan


Post  Wed, Mar 13 2019, 11:35 am
amother wrote:
My husband is a big law lawyer. He tells people not to go to law school. The real statistics for frum men are dismal. Less than 25% make over 60k a year. It's not enough to supporta frum family


I agree! If that wasnt the case, many wouldnt be tripping over themselves to become judges, who make about 100,000, give or take, depending on what kind of judge.
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Mevater




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Mar 13 2019, 11:37 am
gingertop wrote:
OP, I didn't feel at all that the Shtisel's were portrayed as extra poor. For their community, they actually seem to be doing ok. Living in an old but decent apartment. Some financial concerns but not relying on tzedaka. I've seen much much worse poverty in Yerushalmi friends whose husbands and themselves work.


What about Gitel's husband and her brother the "mouse catcher"? Theyre painted as m I s e r a b l e.
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gingertop




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Mar 13 2019, 11:44 am
Mevater wrote:
What about Gitel's husband and her brother the "mouse catcher"? Theyre painted as m I s e r a b l e.


I don't think it's out of bounds to have one miserable family in a larger family of not too rich, not too poor. This is a rather poor community with some exceptions.
We've given multiple people money to buy food for shabbos over the years. I don't want to carry on about some of the hair raising poverty I've observed here.
I think Shtisels for the most part are not exceptionally poor and not too reduced to stereotypes.
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amother




Ruby


Post  Wed, Mar 13 2019, 11:48 am
I didn’t get this impression from the show at all. They don’t look like they’re living in poverty.
Yes in Israel it is much more difficult to make a living , you sound like you are speaking about here in the Us where there is much more opportunity
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Mevater




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Mar 13 2019, 12:02 pm
gingertop wrote:
I don't think it's out of bounds to have one miserable family in a larger family of not too rich, not too poor. This is a rather poor community with some exceptions.
We've given multiple people money to buy food for shabbos over the years. I don't want to carry on about some of the hair raising poverty I've observed here.
I think Shtisels for the most part are not exceptionally poor and not too reduced to stereotypes.


Im sure that in Geula there are some comfortable Charedi business owners and tech employees as well. How come we didnt see even one?

Also how many elderly Rebbitzens use the word "Tuches", if you think about it?
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