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CNN And Anti Semitism
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fmt4




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Mar 15 2019, 8:37 am
Spout is definitely the right word.
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Squishy




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Mar 15 2019, 9:09 am
fmt4 wrote:
Spout is definitely the right word.


Maybe the willingly blind will listen and finally figure out the democratic party would rather have antisemites in its rank then liberal Jews. Why else water down a resolution condemning antisemitism to include everyone including puppy kickers. The only way the resolution would have teeth is a clear unequivocal condemnation of antisemitic tweets by Congressmen and Congresswomen.

I will continue to call out the truth. I don't need to distort anything to make my points.
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Fox




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Mar 15 2019, 11:27 am
fmt4 wrote:
I thought we were trying to not make the Nazi comparisons? Fox, weren’t you the one who said that they should be avoided?

I think you're confused between stating a historical fact and making a comparison.

Amarante claimed that "cockroach" was not connected to defamatory characterizations of Jews.

I pointed out two examples contradicting that: (1) the use of the expression by anti-religious elements in Israel; and (2) Nazi use of parasitic insect analogies when describing Jews.

You seem to be claiming that I compared the CNN commentator to a Nazi, which is patently untrue. Comparing a contemporary individual to Nazis is not the same as simply pointing out a historical fact.

As it happens, I don't believe the statement was consciously or even unconsciously intended to be anti-Semitic. In a perfect world, I would probably consider a response of, "Not cool, dude" to be adequate.

However, the left in general and CNN in particular have insisted that people be punished for bigotry regardless of intent. I happen to believe that's wrong, but part of Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" is to make people play by their own rules. So the concept should be familiar to everyone at CNN.
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fmt4




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Mar 15 2019, 12:00 pm
Fox wrote:
I think you're confused between stating a historical fact and making a comparison.

Amarante claimed that "cockroach" was not connected to defamatory characterizations of Jews.

I pointed out two examples contradicting that: (1) the use of the expression by anti-religious elements in Israel; and (2) Nazi use of parasitic insect analogies when describing Jews.

You seem to be claiming that I compared the CNN commentator to a Nazi, which is patently untrue. Comparing a contemporary individual to Nazis is not the same as simply pointing out a historical fact.

As it happens, I don't believe the statement was consciously or even unconsciously intended to be anti-Semitic. In a perfect world, I would probably consider a response of, "Not cool, dude" to be adequate.

However, the left in general and CNN in particular have insisted that people be punished for bigotry regardless of intent. I happen to believe that's wrong, but part of Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" is to make people play by their own rules. So the concept should be familiar to everyone at CNN.


I wasn’t referring to your comments at all. I was talking about Squishy’s comments, where she explicitly saying that democrats are following the Nazi playbook. You said in another thread that you would call her out on it.
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Squishy




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Mar 15 2019, 12:07 pm
Fox wrote:
I think you're confused between stating a historical fact and making a comparison.

Amarante claimed that "cockroach" was not connected to defamatory characterizations of Jews.

I pointed out two examples contradicting that: (1) the use of the expression by anti-religious elements in Israel; and (2) Nazi use of parasitic insect analogies when describing Jews.

You seem to be claiming that I compared the CNN commentator to a Nazi, which is patently untrue. Comparing a contemporary individual to Nazis is not the same as simply pointing out a historical fact.

As it happens, I don't believe the statement was consciously or even unconsciously intended to be anti-Semitic. In a perfect world, I would probably consider a response of, "Not cool, dude" to be adequate.

However, the left in general and CNN in particular have insisted that people be punished for bigotry regardless of intent. I happen to believe that's wrong, but part of Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" is to make people play by their own rules. So the concept should be familiar to everyone at CNN.


The hypocrisy and blinders on the left is laughable. You could probably detail it better than me. The women's march was organized because a private conversation of Trump's long before he entered politics was publicized. Jewish liberals supported this despite the fact they were aware that the leaders were antisemitic. We told them at the time. Only until the march was canceled due to the fact they didn't want Jews marching would they even admit that the main march was antisemitic.

Don't worry about them twisting your words. That's one of their weapons in their arsenal. It means you hit home.

When I first mentioned the fact that there were Jews who supported the Nazis rise to power, I was bizarrely accused of calling a poster's 90 year old mother, who is a survivor, a nazi collaborator. I still have no idea how we got from point A to point B. I didn't even know that poster had a mother.
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Fox




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Mar 15 2019, 12:17 pm
fmt4 wrote:
I wasn’t referring to your comments at all. I was talking about Squishy’s comments, where she explicitly saying that democrats are following the Nazi playbook. You said in another thread that you would call her out on it.

People can say whatever they want. I'm not in charge of Imamother. I'm not even a moderator.

I am generally opposed to making comparisons with Nazis because it often ends up diminishing the magnitude of the Holocaust. It's also a common tactic among people who actually know almost nothing about Nazi ideology. However, other people disagree with me and believe it's accurate and useful.
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Squishy




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Mar 15 2019, 12:20 pm
Fox wrote:
People can say whatever they want. I'm not in charge of Imamother. I'm not even a moderator.

I am generally opposed to making comparisons with Nazis because it often ends up diminishing the magnitude of the Holocaust. It's also a common tactic among people who actually know almost nothing about Nazi ideology. However, other people disagree with me and believe it's accurate and useful.


She wants to shut down conversations that she doesn't like.

Typical tactic on the left. They are for free speech as looking as it agrees with their current nonsense. The second they don't like the speech, they will scream and riot just like the ....
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fmt4




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Mar 15 2019, 3:20 pm
Fox wrote:
People can say whatever they want. I'm not in charge of Imamother. I'm not even a moderator.

I am generally opposed to making comparisons with Nazis because it often ends up diminishing the magnitude of the Holocaust. It's also a common tactic among people who actually know almost nothing about Nazi ideology. However, other people disagree with me and believe it's accurate and useful.


You’ve called out posters who compare trump to hitler or the alt right to Nazis. You should do the same thing when posters compare democrats to Nazis. You said in another thread that you would PM squishy and ask her not to do it anymore.
In case you haven’t noticed, she kind of takes eveything you say very seriously and would probably listen.
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Squishy




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Mar 15 2019, 4:09 pm
fmt4 wrote:
You’ve called out posters who compare trump to hitler or the alt right to Nazis. You should do the same thing when posters compare democrats to Nazis. You said in another thread that you would PM squishy and ask her not to do it anymore.
In case you haven’t noticed, she kind of takes eveything you say very seriously and would probably listen.


What part of murdering handicapped babies (afterbirth abortions) troubles you about me comparing it to Nazis murdering German handicapped citizens? It really hits a nerve.

You can see the parallels clearly. If you couldn't, then it shouldn't bother you.

I can't even believe that in 2019 we have a governor discussing afterbirth abortions. Every correct thinking person knows murder is wrong. When you start desensitizing these population to murder of its citizens, nothing good comes of it.
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Amarante




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Mar 15 2019, 4:23 pm
I certainly will keep this thread in mind the next time one of the numerous threads regarding the sensitivity of ethnic groups LOL LOL

There is no particular association between the sarcastic reference to cockroaches and Jews that would be made by the "person in the street."

I do find the irony of the right wing posters who are normally descrying how carefully one must tread in an era of political correctness going out of their way to find anti-Semitism where there is none.

As my original post stated, be careful about making these kinds of statements because it trivializes truly anti-Semitic statements and actions.
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Squishy




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Mar 15 2019, 5:11 pm
Amarante wrote:
I certainly will keep this thread in mind the next time one of the numerous threads regarding the sensitivity of ethnic groups LOL LOL

There is no particular association between the sarcastic reference to cockroaches and Jews that would be made by the "person in the street."

I do find the irony of the right wing posters who are normally descrying how carefully one must tread in an era of political correctness going out of their way to find anti-Semitism where there is none.

As my original post stated, be careful about making these kinds of statements because it trivializes truly anti-Semitic statements and actions.


Are you saying there isn't any antisemitism on the left?
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fmt4




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Mar 15 2019, 5:23 pm
She’s pointing out the irony in the same people complaining that islamophobia, xenophobia, and racism is overblown simultaneously finding anti- Semitism everywhere.
It shows a certain kind of self- centeredness and selfishness that is pretty embarrassing, in my opinion. Hatred only matters when it’s against me or people I care about. Otherwise it’s ridiculous and exaggerated.
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Squishy




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Mar 15 2019, 6:19 pm
fmt4 wrote:
She’s pointing out the irony in the same people complaining that islamophobia, xenophobia, and racism is overblown simultaneously finding anti- Semitism everywhere.
It shows a certain kind of self- centeredness and selfishness that is pretty embarrassing, in my opinion. Hatred only matters when it’s against me or people I care about. Otherwise it’s ridiculous and exaggerated.


She said none. Let her explain her statement. Is your logic that she is being ironic by saying there is none when referring to antisemitism.

That's rich. So obviously you are supporting an antisemitic party since you are claiming it's irony.

Can't Believe It
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ora_43




 
 
 


Post  Sat, Mar 16 2019, 1:38 pm
I'm with Amarante... mostly.

"Cockroach" isn't a specifically anti-Semitic insult.

The question isn't just whether anti-Semites use "cockroach" to refer to Jews, it's also whether people who aren't anti-Semites use it, and whether it's also used to refer to people who aren't Jewish.

I mean, if anti-Semites call Jews "cruel," it doesn't mean that every time someone accuses another person of being cruel it's a dog whistle.

... but it is dehumanizing.

I don't think this needs explanation. There are a bunch of insults out there that don't bring to mind the image of something disgusting that should be killed.

Basically, just because you hate someone on their own merits - and not because of their ethnicity/ religion/ s-xuality/ etc - doesn't mean anything goes. You still have to be careful what you say.

That said, in this particular context the guy was comparing them to cockroaches in terms of their ability to survive (and the idea that cockroaches are the animal most likely to survive anything is very well known)... It was a very poor choice of words, but IMHO not as bad as if he'd just flat out called them cockroaches.
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Fox




 
 
 


Post  Sat, Mar 16 2019, 9:27 pm
ora_43 wrote:
The question isn't just whether anti-Semites use "cockroach" to refer to Jews, it's also whether people who aren't anti-Semites use it, and whether it's also used to refer to people who aren't Jewish.

I mean, if anti-Semites call Jews "cruel," it doesn't mean that every time someone accuses another person of being cruel it's a dog whistle.

In other words, it needs to be pretty obvious that someone both aware of the association and is intending to express anti-Semitic or other bigoted sentiments.

I'm all in for that requirement. But it has to be applied consistently.

Anyone who is claiming that this was in poor taste but not specifically anti-Semitic MUST be willing to apply that same standard with regard to the following people:

Roseanne Barr
Megyn Kelly
Kevin McCarthy
Ron De Santis

. . . and plenty of others who've been accused, with varying degrees of harm, of various types of bigotry.

However, people who defend a group that regularly yells "n****r" in the faces of black police officers while at the same time fretting over racism among conservatives are probably not the best arbiters of how to create a better society.
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Cheiny




 
 
 


Post  Sat, Mar 16 2019, 9:39 pm
Amarante wrote:
I certainly will keep this thread in mind the next time one of the numerous threads regarding the sensitivity of ethnic groups LOL LOL

There is no particular association between the sarcastic reference to cockroaches and Jews that would be made by the "person in the street."

I do find the irony of the right wing posters who are normally descrying how carefully one must tread in an era of political correctness going out of their way to find anti-Semitism where there is none.

As my original post stated, be careful about making these kinds of statements because it trivializes truly anti-Semitic statements and actions.


This is truly sad and shameful.
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Cheiny




 
 
 


Post  Sat, Mar 16 2019, 9:42 pm
ora_43 wrote:
I'm with Amarante... mostly.

"Cockroach" isn't a specifically anti-Semitic insult.

The question isn't just whether anti-Semites use "cockroach" to refer to Jews, it's also whether people who aren't anti-Semites use it, and whether it's also used to refer to people who aren't Jewish.

I mean, if anti-Semites call Jews "cruel," it doesn't mean that every time someone accuses another person of being cruel it's a dog whistle.

... but it is dehumanizing.

I don't think this needs explanation. There are a bunch of insults out there that don't bring to mind the image of something disgusting that should be killed.

Basically, just because you hate someone on their own merits - and not because of their ethnicity/ religion/ s-xuality/ etc - doesn't mean anything goes. You still have to be careful what you say.

That said, in this particular context the guy was comparing them to cockroaches in terms of their ability to survive (and the idea that cockroaches are the animal most likely to survive anything is very well known)... It was a very poor choice of words, but IMHO not as bad as if he'd just flat out called them cockroaches.


The same kind of inane justifications were made by Pelosi and her party to excuse the vile anti Semite ilhan omar whose comments were excused away as “not that bad,” “not meaning what you thought they meant,” “she didn’t understand what she was saying.” But when the justification comes from the (usually self hating) Jewish side, it’s truly shameful.
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ora_43




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Mar 17 2019, 2:15 am
Cheiny wrote:
The same kind of inane justifications were made by Pelosi and her party to excuse the vile anti Semite ilhan omar whose comments were excused away as “not that bad,” “not meaning what you thought they meant,” “she didn’t understand what she was saying.” But when the justification comes from the (usually self hating) Jewish side, it’s truly shameful.

Give me a break. Jews aren't a hive mind, it's inevitable that sometimes, in borderline cases, some of us will see anti-Semitism and others won't.

Can we not have a reasonable conversation about it? Like, without accusations of "self hating," "shameful," etc?

Ilhan Omar is a different story because at this point she's made at least four separate oops-teehee-was-that-anti-Semitism? type comments. Honestly, if it had been just the one, I'd give her the benefit of the doubt too.
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ora_43




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Mar 17 2019, 2:23 am
Fox wrote:
Anyone who is claiming that this was in poor taste but not specifically anti-Semitic MUST be willing to apply that same standard with regard to the following people:

Roseanne Barr
Megyn Kelly
Kevin McCarthy
Ron De Santis

. . . and plenty of others who've been accused, with varying degrees of harm, of various types of bigotry.

I've only heard of the first two, but those are already two very different cases. Roseanne Barr has been saying extreme stuff for years. The insult that got her in trouble most recently was a lot more strongly linked to a specific kind of racism. IMO criticism of her was deserved and she's lucky it didn't happen earlier.

Megyn Kelly, OTOH - I would agree that she wasn't intentionally racist, more like ignorant of why certain things are so offensive to certain groups. I think that's a much more similar case to this one.

In short - I don't think it's reasonable to say we have to come to the same conclusion in all similar cases, because often there are small but significant differences.

I do agree that it wouldn't be fair to be willing to forgive oops-that-sounded-kinda-racist comments from only one side of the political spectrum, and not the other.
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