Home
Log in / Sign Up
    Private Messages   Advanced Search   Rules   New User Guide   FAQ   Advertise   Contact Us  
Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Purim
Poor Shaming on Purim
  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  Next



Post new topic   Reply to topic View latest: 24h 48h 72h

watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 18 2019, 7:00 am
I’m a bit surprised that no one has posted this article yet.

https://blogs.timesofisrael.co.....PI8-0

Here is just one gem from the article but please read the whole thing:
“Instead of increasing friendship or showing concern for the poor, mishlochei manot have turned into a flashy beauty pageant meant to attest to the qualities of the sender much more than the delight of the receiver.”

The Purim that I read about on imamother is nothing like what Mordechai and Esther had in mind. From coercion to tip rebbes (and preschool morahs), someone mocking the “kiddy like mishloach manos sent OOT by BTs who dont know the norms” (still trying to figure that one out but my guess is the amother who wrote that is the one who doesnt know what the norms are), Purim has turned into a day of showing hakaras hatov, social requirements, invented mitzvos, and shaming those who dont partipare in the same beliefs of “norms”.

Yes! Your money is yours to spend as you’d like. Kind of. There are actual halachos involved. And remember, the money was given to you by HKBH to hold and use. I cant help but think that when giving and receiving and participaring in the actual mitzvos of the day with a full heart and the right kavanahs, these posts from the wives and daughters of rebbes would not exist. Posts from people who toss mm that arent up to their standards wont exist. It would be more like what Mordechai and Esther had in mind.
Back to top

33055




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 18 2019, 7:17 am
It's not only Purim that is over the top. The competition with everything from esrogim and matzoh baked the day of the seder and flashy tallises can all serve to shame poor people if they buy into this. The cost of matching outfits, gift's for siblings and future mils and fils of the kallah and chossen each yon tiff, and jewelry for mom for different occasions and vacations are all part of the out of control spending.

I don't think Purim is alone in the material competition. My community recognizes this and has gamachs and vouchers to help the truly poor. But what ends up happening is they increase the standards for all. The real pressure is on those that don't take tzedukah but are close to that level.
Back to top

ra_mom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 18 2019, 7:23 am
watergirl, how many of us encounter people like this in real life? Purim is so much fun and there's such camaraderie. Only on imamother have I seen such attitude. Not real life stuff. Unless there's a specific community that's like this that I haven't come across.
Back to top

Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 18 2019, 7:26 am
My kids school has a €2.50 maximum that can be spent on class MM. Which is a lot...in places with better availability of kosher food this could be a smaller amount.

I think teachers could also be proactive and have a stash of chocolate and candy to put into kids baskets which are very sparse but this has to be done in a sensitive way.

I think most people seem to be pretty sensible with MM...and we are all aware those who go over the top are not doing it for the mitzva but for other more selfish reasons such as self expression.
Back to top

amother
Ginger


 

Post Mon, Mar 18 2019, 7:31 am
ra_mom wrote:
watergirl, how many of us encounter people like this in real life? Purim is so much fun and there's such camaraderie. Only on imamother have I seen such attitude. Not real life stuff. Unless there's a specific community that's like this that I haven't come across.


This. I live in a well-off community in Lakewood and mishloach manos we receive are simple and tasteful, some are cute.
My in laws live in another well established, well to do neighborhood and very few mishloach manos are flashy. Most are simple and tasteful.
Back to top

pesek zman




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 18 2019, 7:44 am
What I don’t get is how it came to be that people feel the need to give MM to everyone: all their friends, neighborsa, teachers, therapists, family. I hope my friends and family are confident in my love for them despite the fact that a vast majority won’t get MM from me. I just can’t get in board with making and sending 30 MM. I make about 5. I do the mitzvah.
Back to top

southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 18 2019, 7:47 am
My mantra on imamother is exactly what Squishy says; that in so many ways we raise the bar until we end up with people who can't participate.

I do see that many families stick with friends who have a similar standard of living but the yeshivas have both rich and poor and kids who grow up in shame may view the frum community as something that hurt them and they might not want to be a part of it as adults.

I agree with any Rebbe, menahel, shul rav, etc that institutes takanas.

OTOH, frum businesses are raking it in so hopefully that means more jobs and more tzedukah.

My son the Chabad shaliach does give the fancy trays to major supporters so I agree with doing it in those circumstances. Many supporters are not Orthodox so they seem to really appreciate it. Ditto for kallahs and future MILs. Just not for everyone else.
Back to top

amother
Turquoise


 

Post Mon, Mar 18 2019, 7:49 am
pesek zman wrote:
What I don’t get is how it came to be that people feel the need to give MM to everyone: all their friends, neighborsa, teachers, therapists, family. I hope my friends and family are confident in my love for them despite the fact that a vast majority won’t get MM from me. I just can’t get in board with making and sending 30 MM. I make about 5. I do the mitzvah.


Some people enjoy it! I can speak for myself, Purim is exciting for me. I like to plan and pack cheap but elegant shalach Manos to give to family and friends. I honestly don't care who gives me, I enjoy the process. That's what works for me, it doesn't mean everyone has to do it
Back to top

trixx




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 18 2019, 7:56 am
Squishy wrote:
It's not only Purim that is over the top. The competition with everything from esrogim and matzoh baked the day of the seder and flashy tallises can all serve to shame poor people if they buy into this. The cost of matching outfits, gift's for siblings and future mils and fils of the kallah and chossen each yon tiff, and jewelry for mom for different occasions and vacations are all part of the out of control spending.

I don't think Purim is alone in the material competition. My community recognizes this and has gamachs and vouchers to help the truly poor. But what ends up happening is they increase the standards for all. The real pressure is on those that don't take tzedukah but are close to that level.


These things are legitimate
For hundreds of years poor jews have been paying their entire salary for an esrog
Everything else in your post is made up
Back to top

amother
Lawngreen


 

Post Mon, Mar 18 2019, 7:59 am
watergirl wrote:
I’m a bit surprised that no one has posted this article yet.

https://blogs.timesofisrael.co.....PI8-0

Here is just one gem from the article but please read the whole thing:
“Instead of increasing friendship or showing concern for the poor, mishlochei manot have turned into a flashy beauty pageant meant to attest to the qualities of the sender much more than the delight of the receiver.”

The Purim that I read about on imamother is nothing like what Mordechai and Esther had in mind. From coercion to tip rebbes (and preschool morahs), someone mocking the “kiddy like mishloach manos sent OOT by BTs who dont know the norms” (still trying to figure that one out but my guess is the amother who wrote that is the one who doesnt know what the norms are), Purim has turned into a day of showing hakaras hatov, social requirements, invented mitzvos, and shaming those who dont partipare in the same beliefs of “norms”.

Yes! Your money is yours to spend as you’d like. Kind of. There are actual halachos involved. And remember, the money was given to you by HKBH to hold and use. I cant help but think that when giving and receiving and participaring in the actual mitzvos of the day with a full heart and the right kavanahs, these posts from the wives and daughters of rebbes would not exist. Posts from people who toss mm that arent up to their standards wont exist. It would be more like what Mordechai and Esther had in mind.


I give “kiddy like mishloach manos” because I don’t believe in giving over-the-top MMs to curry favor/ bribe people. People can mock all they like, I fulfill my Mitzvot on Purim without being flash. I have been financially poor and wealthy on Purim and give the same type of MM regardless. The only difference is now I give a larger amount of Matanos L’evonayim.
Back to top

thunderstorm




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 18 2019, 8:02 am
And I can't tell you how many people I know that take this pressure so strongly that they need psychiatric drugs such as anxiety meds during this time of year especially the few days around Purim.
I have a family member who "can't give anything homemade because it will be tossed", it "NEEDS" to look classy and has to have something of "value" that the recipient can keep long term. Her kids "Have" to give at least 15 friends. She is the one driving and taking them everywhere the entire day even though they are teens. She is SO overwhelmed with the mishloach manos aspect of delivering and making her rounds that she "doesn't have time" to hear Megillah!!! She is a single mother and spends hundreds of dollars that she doesn't have because she said that she "can't give less to her friends"..... and I stand there scratching my head after hearing this. The entire essence of Purim has been tossed along with the homemade MM and the Rebbes MM that didn't have a check...so so sad.
This is in the MO community.

Then I know someone in the Chasidish community who HATES Purim because of the pressure it puts on her. She doesn't have the money to tip all the teachers and Rebbes and to give the fancy MMs. She is one of 18 siblings and the 18 siblings NEED to give each other too. She calls me and literally cries because she can't take it. Sometimes she leaves her home early in the morning on Purim and goes to stay by her parents so that she doesn't have to face anybody because she is too embarrassed to give back a simple MM and would rather have them think she wasn't home.
She fights with her DH over tipping the rebbeim and teachers. She too told me that she has taken meds during this time.

These are two examples of two people that I'm very close too. I bet there are a lot more people out there suffering like this and it is terrible. It literally takes away from Simcha's Purim the happiest day of the year.
Back to top

aricelli




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 18 2019, 8:05 am
ra_mom wrote:
watergirl, how many of us encounter people like this in real life? Purim is so much fun and there's such camaraderie. Only on imamother have I seen such attitude. Not real life stuff. Unless there's a specific community that's like this that I haven't come across.

Yes- but all these people here on imamother do exist in real life! Over here theyre just brave enough to voice out loud what they only think in real time
Back to top

leah233




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 18 2019, 8:16 am
Assuming this is really a problem what solution is anyone here proposing?
Back to top

33055




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 18 2019, 8:28 am
leah233 wrote:
Assuming this is really a problem what solution is anyone here proposing?

That Rabbonim make another ban? This time on the amount of mishloach manos that may be given out and the type?

(Imagine how hysterical Imamother and online world would go then)

I give out mostly very simple mishloach manos appreciate the few expensive ones (and of course also the non expensive ones) given to me and don't see this issue as being a communal problem at all.

For those who do what is your proposed solution?


We get so many MM that only the outstanding ones stand out. The rest fall into the background. They are all over the range. I never looked at a MM and thought for a moment that the person was cheap or poor or whatever. Give what you can, or don't give at all. We still care for you.

I know we don't judge anyones MM. We feel loved and part of the community no matter what we get and even if you don't give us.
Back to top

southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 18 2019, 8:35 am
leah233 wrote:
Assuming this is really a problem what solution is anyone here proposing?


Takanas
Let each family member or shul members draw names and just give to one of them. Same in classrooms.
Back to top

33055




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 18 2019, 8:38 am
southernbubby wrote:
Takanas
Let each family member or shul members draw names and just give to one of them. Same in classrooms.


The problem with that is the disparate MMs. Kids would outright state whose they prefer. The author of the article that the subject of this thead carries around that classroom shame.
Back to top

little neshamala




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 18 2019, 8:42 am
I dont notice any of this over the top mishloach manos stuff in my community BH-but I do believe there are those who see it, and feel pressure from it, like thunderstorm said.
But its not just purim.
People feel pressured to send to seminary when they can't afford it, to promise they'll support their kids when they cant afford it, clothe their children for yomtov in the high end Jewish boutiques when they cant afford it, make a fancy wedding when they cant afford it....

Bottom line? People need to learn to live within their means, and stop being so embarassed to do so
. Be PROUD of the financial decision you make, be RESPONSIBLE in the financial choices you make, and stop being such a wuss about "well chaya needs to go to seminary because I dont want everyone to think shes weird" and "chaim needs a 6 piece band and real flowers by the wedding because everyone else does that". Seriously??? Come on, grow up!! Everybody just do what you can and thats it!

I heard a shiur from a Rav about the times of the Bais Hamikdash-the poor people brought simple bikurim and the wealthier brought lavish extravagent baskets. There were no takanos instituted. Because people recognized, if you can afford it, go for it! And if you cant, then dont!

This is hardly about mishloach manos. This is about pressure in general, and maybe needing a little more self esteem to be ok with living a bit simpler.
Back to top

ra_mom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 18 2019, 8:49 am
Our children's schools don't allow any sort of mishloach manos exchange in school. And that I agree with. It's the children who get shamed, feel shamed. Hopefully the adults can keep things together. Very Happy
Back to top

amother
Denim


 

Post Mon, Mar 18 2019, 8:51 am
pesek zman wrote:
What I don’t get is how it came to be that people feel the need to give MM to everyone: all their friends, neighborsa, teachers, therapists, family. I hope my friends and family are confident in my love for them despite the fact that a vast majority won’t get MM from me. I just can’t get in board with making and sending 30 MM. I make about 5. I do the mitzvah.


I agree
But what do you do if 50 come to your door?
You can’t let them go empty handed
DH is the Rav, though
Back to top

thunderstorm




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 18 2019, 8:51 am
little neshamala wrote:
I dont notice any of this over the top mishloach manos stuff in my community BH-but I do believe there are those who see it, and feel pressure from it, like thunderstorm said.
But its not just purim.
People feel pressured to send to seminary when they can't afford it, to promise they'll support their kids when they cant afford it, clothe their children for yomtov in the high end Jewish boutiques when they cant afford it, make a fancy wedding when they cant afford it....

Bottom line? People need to learn to live within their means, and stop being so embarassed to do so
. Be PROUD of the financial decision you make, be RESPONSIBLE in the financial choices you make, and stop being such a wuss about "well chaya needs to go to seminary because I dont want everyone to think shes weird" and "chaim needs a 6 piece band and real flowers by the wedding because everyone else does that". Seriously??? Come on, grow up!! Everybody just do what you can and thats it!

I heard a shiur from a Rav about the times of the Bais Hamikdash-the poor people brought simple bikurim and the wealthier brought lavish extravagent baskets. There were no takanos instituted. Because people recognized, if you can afford it, go for it! And if you cant, then dont!

This is hardly about mishloach manos. This is about pressure in general, and maybe needing a little more self esteem to be ok with living a bit simpler.

I agree. I think that unfortunately in today's day and age the penimius of a person is not valued as much as their chitzonius. This tends to affect people's self worth in a negative way. People feel valued based on appearance as opposed to who they are as a person. When they can't live up to that they feel worthless and ashamed . It's a worldwide problem in general. It's a material world and that's what the focus is on. There is no way to fix it besides for Mashiach coming.
Back to top
Page 1 of 8   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  Next Recent Topics




Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Purim

Related Topics Replies Last Post
Purim and babysitters
by amother
6 Wed, Mar 27 2024, 12:32 pm View last post
Purim pkg from comfort health
by amother
2 Tue, Mar 26 2024, 10:47 pm View last post
How do you Purim? And do you like it?
by amother
6 Tue, Mar 26 2024, 4:46 pm View last post
Best purim takeout lakewood
by amother
3 Tue, Mar 26 2024, 9:17 am View last post
Giving mishloach monos after Purim
by amother
3 Tue, Mar 26 2024, 12:16 am View last post