Poor Shaming on Purim

amother

Maroon

Mon, Mar 18 2019, 8:57 pm

Maybe one idea a teacher could implement to ensure each girl in her class receive a mm, would be to do a secret Santa sort of thing, where each girl picks a name out of a bag and then delivers to that classmate. It takes the pressure off the giver and also prevents any embarrassed feelings on the part of the recipient (what I never get about these teachers is, unless the friendless girl has no social awareness, she is bound to feel like a nebbach when ms. Popularity who has barely interacted with her previously out of the blue drops by on Purim, especially since she knows the teacher made an announcement about this! )

amother

White

Mon, Mar 18 2019, 9:01 pm

amother wrote:

We did this in school - we picked out three names and didn't give anyone else.

Our teacher instituted it one year and we decided to carry on every year after that. Saves so much heartache.

amother

Forestgreen

Mon, Mar 18 2019, 9:03 pm

amother wrote:

My sentiments exactly
There must be a better way to bring true purim joy without hurting people on the way

Mommyg8

Mon, Mar 18 2019, 9:37 pm

Squishy wrote:

The problem with giving tzedukah to the poor to give MM creates pressure on the next level up. Why not just allow everyone to do what they can? The mitzvah can be fulfilled simply. School rules can deal with the problems among the children.

My community has costume gamachs which I think are great. But when you start giving funding to pay for hair bows and other luxuries, all you do is reinforce materialism and uniformity.

Funding for hair bows is a thing that I have written about before. When you raise the bar for the lowest strata to have $20 matching hair bows for all the girls, the next level feels pressure for the new standards or they feel neeby in their $1 hair bows.

I was going to write that if we keep this up we will be giving funding for vacations. We are already there.

You keep writing about the huge amount of tzedakah that is being given out and poor people being given luxuries - maybe it's just that this trend has not yet spread to Lakewood or New York, the two communities I am familiar with, but I am definitely not seeing this. I see plenty of poor people in both places, and they are really and truly poor. Working too hard, not enough money for food, hand me down clothing, living in way too small apartments....

There are certainly plenty of people in both places who are living above their means, but they are doing this either on Uncle Sam, their parents, or credit card companies cheshbon. Not from tzedakah organizations.

I think it's wonderful if, as you say, tzedakah is really paying for nice clothing for these kids. It's so hard to be poor, why begrudge these people a little bit of sunshine in their lives?

Mommyg8

Mon, Mar 18 2019, 9:39 pm

southernbubby wrote:

I can agree with you 100%!
When we do hachnassas kallah it also shouldn't be on such a level as to completely burden the community. I don't want to donate so that every kallah gets $20,000 for new furniture.
I thought each girl was getting one $20 bow and I couldn't understand why that was a big deal. I pictured a poor kid wearing cast off clothes with the overpriced bow.

I don't know where they are giving $20,000 for new furniture. Definitely not in Lakewood, and AFAIK not in New York City either.

ectomorph

Mon, Mar 18 2019, 9:39 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Exactly. I'm just not seeing this -or I'm seeing it in ways I don't begrudge.

I'm so happy to payfor a nice outfit for a little girl who otherwise is wearing hand me downs. Let her have her childhood joy.

southernbubby

Mon, Mar 18 2019, 10:07 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I don't know where they are giving $20,000 for new furniture. Definitely not in Lakewood, and AFAIK not in New York City either.

From what I was told from someone who left a Chassidishe community, if a mechutan can't provide the standard furnishings, he may be forced to raise the money from tzedukah. That means when he knocks on the door for hachnassas kallah, it's not because he is shopping at Target. People have been complaining for years about the people from Israel who have to purchase apartments when their kids get married and expect American Jews to pay for it.
No, I don't know of any organization that provides luxuries like that.

southernbubby

Mon, Mar 18 2019, 10:11 pm

ectomorph wrote:

I also see a lot of true poverty. A family member of mine lived in peanut butter sandwiches for months because that's what they could afford.

Were there no family members who could help with proper food? It is admirable that you want to buy their daughter a new dress but shouldn't good nutrition come first?

Mommyg8

Mon, Mar 18 2019, 10:14 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Chassidim have their own way of doing things. I guess they fundraise within their communities for what they consider necessities. Not my money, not my problem.

I would definitely give tzedakah to a poor family from Eretz Yisroel to help them buy an apartment for their children. I don't have huge sums of masser money, but I give meshulachim five dollars or so - why not?

ectomorph

Mon, Mar 18 2019, 10:14 pm

southernbubby wrote:

From what I was told from someone who left a Chassidishe community, and is therefore a very trustworthy source if a mechutan can't provide the standard furnishings, he may be forced to raise the money from tzedukah. Is this America or israel. And makes no sense. hat means when he knocks on the door for hachnassas kallah, it's not because he is shopping at Target. You have no way of knowing. People have been complaining for years about the people from Israel who have to purchase apartments when their kids get married and expect American Jews to pay for it. You have been complaining and as discussed on another thread this is a tiny minority of israelis who come here.
No, I don't know of any organization that provides luxuries like that.

You're conflating a bunch of things. People who get apartments in Israel live on pennies for the rest of their lives. People who get 20k are usually orphans that people want to make sure have a good start.

Basically what you and squishy are doing is looking at whatever anyone ever gets and making some fake combination of person who gets all of these things.

See my comments in italics above

ectomorph

Mon, Mar 18 2019, 10:16 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Were there no family members who could help with proper food? It is admirable that you want to buy their daughter a new dress but shouldn't good nutrition come first?

Nope no one could help. Complex situation.

Not talking about same situation.

And this is what I mean. You literally begrudge anything anyone gives anyone else.

amother

Teal

Mon, Mar 18 2019, 10:20 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

This would be my first suggestion. Teachers, rebbes, whatever you call them, may not accept individual MM (giving them time with their families instead of greeting students). You donate to the PTA (recommended donation; if you don't have it, give what you can) and every teacher, administrators and staff members gets MM and a tip, from everyone.

Shuls also distribute MM. You pay a small amount to participate, plus $1 or $2 or whatever per name. Again, I'd give a break to those who can't afford (with full knowledge that people will take advantage). Its a fundraiser for the shul.

Now that you've gotten rid of the umpteen "obligatory" MM, do what you want for your family or 3 closest friends or whatever.

That wouldn’t work for me. I use up half my day going around to teachers. Beats staying home and realizing how unpopular we are. I made peace with it years ago. We make a cool costume and fun MM and we give to the kids teachers and 3 friends per kid. And then we have a fun seuda by ourselves. See there are worse things than too much social pressure. I have none. I haven’t been invited out for a meal in years. I don’t have people knocking my door down. When I make simchos, I may be at a loss who to invite. Don’t feel bad for me or pm me that you want to send me. I don’t need it. I decided to enjoy Purim the way it is, and so I do. But not being able to give to teachers would mess with my coping mechanisms.

southernbubby

Mon, Mar 18 2019, 10:22 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

We always give them something but do you feel that the American frum community is obligated to pay for the apartments? They need to knock on lots of doors if we're all giving $5.

ectomorph

Mon, Mar 18 2019, 10:25 pm

southernbubby wrote:

We always give them something but do you feel that the American frum community is obligated to pay for the apartments? They need to knock on lots of doors if we're all giving $5.

As I wrote here https://www.imamother.com/foru.....46554

It's a tiny minority and if it bothers you don't give. Stop being stingy with OTHER PEOPLE'S tzedaka!!

southernbubby

Mon, Mar 18 2019, 10:26 pm

ectomorph wrote:

Nope no one could help. Complex situation.

Not talking about same situation.

And this is what I mean. You literally begrudge anything anyone gives anyone else.

What I begrudge is social pressure. I don't mind giving or doing what I can give or do. I mind when someone else decides what I should give or do. I worry about how future generations will afford to be frum.

amother

Pumpkin

Mon, Mar 18 2019, 10:26 pm

southernbubby wrote:

My chasidish son is getting married to a girl from Willi. They got cheap furniture. It costed way less than $20,000. Believing what you heard from someone that left the fold is not something I would recommend. Once you live in it you really know the truth.

Mommyg8

Mon, Mar 18 2019, 10:28 pm

southernbubby wrote:

We always give them something but do you feel that the American frum community is obligated to pay for the apartments? They need to knock on lots of doors if we're all giving $5.

Noones ever obligated to give anything. Ever ever. We are all obligated to give tzedakah- to the charity of our choice. If giving poor children nutritious food is what talks to you - by all means, give all your maaser money in that direction.

In my community, there is a huge value in supporting talmidei chachamim and Torah learning, so if the people collecting are kollel people, there are a lot of people in my community that are happy to help them out.

And yes, most of us are not wealthy and can only give five, ten dollars a meshulach. I guess that means that they do collect at a lot of doors.